Home » Uncategorized » May 20, 2013 – Open Thread

May 20, 2013 – Open Thread

CoreyJack Cashill “To convict an innocent man of murder, the prosecutors will have to deny him a  fair trial. Apparently, they are prepared to do just that.”

At the deadline for filing motions, the State made it clear, the Prosecutor doesn’t want the trial to be about Trayvon Martin’s past troubles.  Will the Judge help the State continue to portray Trayvon Martin as the innocent victim that night?  We have seen zero evidence of what the State alleges in its Probable Cause Affidavit

A summary of the filings by the State are as follows, please vote on whether you think the Judge will Grant or Deny the motion on May 28th.

Regarding Trayvon Martin

Motion in limine* regarding Trayvon Martin (A motion “in limine,” from a Latin phrase meaning “at the start,” is filed to get certain evidence included at or excluded from trial.)

Here, the state asks the court to prohibit any mention during trial of “certain facts or opinions associated with Trayvon Martin,”  The state argues such evidence is irrelevant to the trial and the events surrounding his death. What will the Judge keep out?

No talk of failure to call witnesses

State’s motion in limine regarding calling of witnesses
Prosecutors want to block the defense from implying that the state failed to call a witness because their testimony would be unfavorable to the prosecution.

Add your comments on what witnesses you think the State may not call.

No talk of “appropriate penalty”

Motion in limine regarding opinion as to appropriate penalty or disregard of law

Here, the state wants to block the defense from mentioning Zimmerman’s possible punishment if he is found guilty.

The maximum sentence George Zimmerman faces if convicted is life in prison. Prosecutors don’t want that to affect the jury’s decision of whether Zimmerman is guilty or not guilty of second-degree murder.

In the same motion, the state also said the defense should be prohibited from “insinuating that any juror should disregard the law,” or implying that a jury has the power to pardon a defendant.

No mention of marijuana in Trayvon’s blood

Motion for protective order/motion in limine regarding toxicology

The state wants to block any mention of any possible traces of marijuana in Trayvon Martin’s blood on the night he was killed.

The motion says: “No witness has suggested that the level of marijuana reflected in the Victim’s blood sample has any bearing whatsoever on the cause of his death. Nor is there any evidence to suggest the Victim ingested the marijuana at or even near the time of death; that he was under the influence; or that being under the influence would in any way be relevant to the actions of either Victim or the Defendant.”

No “self-serving hearsay”

Motion in limine regarding self-serving hearsay statements of defendant

The state wants to block any “hearsay” statements Zimmerman may have made to witnesses. Evidence deemed hearsay is generally not allowed in court. This motion cites a previous Florida ruling that a defendant’s testimony that he had no prior convictions is “an improper attempt to introduce evidence of general character or reputation.”

No witness opinions on guilt or innocence

Motion to limit/exclude improper opinion evidence

The state wants to make sure the defense does not attempt to ask witnesses whether they think George Zimmerman is guilty, or their opinion regarding his being charged.

The motion cites a previous Florida ruling that “a witness’ opinion as to the guilt or innocence of the accused is not admissible.”

No talk of Zimmerman’s lack of prior felony convictions

Motion in limine regarding prior criminal history

The state doesn’t want the defense to be allowed to mention that George Zimmerman had no previous felony convictions.  This motion cites a previous Florida ruling that a defendant’s testimony that he had no prior convictions is “an improper attempt to introduce evidence of general character or reputation.”

State’s Response to Evidentiary Hearing

State’s Response to Evidentiary Hearing Request

The State says a “Frye” hearing isn’t needed by rather experts should be deposed. A Frye hearing is a pretrial hearing to determine if evidence obtained pursuant to a new theory or methodology should be admitted or excluded during the trial.

After reading the State’s motions to the court, it is clear they know who Trayvon Martin was.  They know the Trayvon Martin that George Zimmerman came upon on the night of February 26, 2012 and they want to keep that young man from the jury.  As we all get to know more about the Trayvon that George met that night, we know more about why the parents keep harping on George getting out of the car.  They knew what effect that action would have on their son.  They knew that George put himself in danger because they knew their son.  Getting out of your car to keep an eye on a stranger in the neighborhood does not justify a beat-down.  It’s shameful that the State of Florida is behaving as though it does.

We await the higher court’s decision on deposing Mr. Crump.  If you haven’t submitted a vote, please do so and let us know your prediction.

For newcomers, please know that racist remarks will be trashed.  If you are presenting yourself as a George Zimmerman supporter, please keep in mind this man is in a fight for his life.  Conduct yourself in a way that won’t bring heartache and/or embarrassment to the Zimmerman family.

If you’d like to share something privately, you can email me at nettles@bell.net

For those who are able, please make a donation to the defense fund. Thank you for helping.


56 thoughts on “May 20, 2013 – Open Thread

  1. On the issue of the motion in limine regaring witness opinions about whether George should have been charged – I see a middle ground there. For your average run of the mill witness, I don’t think it’s appropriate to ask them if they think George should have been charged or not. However, there are specfiic people who, based on their unique training, experience, and knowledge of the workings of this case, are supremely qualified to answer that question. Among these would be Chief Bill Lee, Chris Serino, and Norm Wolfinger. These three people make judgments every day about whether or not someone should be charged with a crime, so it’s perfectly acceptable for them to render an “expert” opinion as to whether or not George should have been charged.

    Had Angela Corey taken this to a Grand Jury, I might feel somewhat differently about this, but because she charged by information rather than Grand Jury indictment, that leads to the question as to why her judgment is of more value than that of Chief Lee or Wolfinger. Serino certainly should be able to render an opinion on this issue.

    • Todd’s reasoning is that if the judge allowed discovery of x, y, and z, then she will allow them to be presented at court. I wish it were that simple, but attorneys have posted that it doesn’t work that way. Apparently judges allow a wide range of discovery, because even if x may not be allowed during trial, investigating x may yield other info that *would* be allowed into trial. So I don’t think we can rest easy thinking that if this judge let the defense discover certain things, that she’s going to ignore BDLR’s motions for the trial phase.

  2. Incorrectly attributed to Andy Rooney but wise none the less: I like big cars, big boats, big motorcycles, big houses and big campfires.

    I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some governmental stooge with a bad comb-over who wants to give it away to crack addicts for squirting out babies.

    Guns do not make you a killer. I think killing makes you a killer. You can kill someone with a baseball bat or a car, but no one is trying to ban you from driving to the ball game.

    I believe they are called the Boy Scouts for a reason, that is why there are no girls allowed. Girls belong in the Girl Scouts! ARE YOU LISTENING MARTHA BURKE?

    I think that if you feel homosexuality is wrong, it is not a phobia, it is an opinion.

    I don’t think being a minority makes you a victim of anything except numbers. The only things I can think of that are truly discriminatory are things like the United Negro College Fund, Jet Magazine, Black Entertainment Television, and Miss Black America. Try to have things like the United Caucasian College Fund, Cloud Magazine, White Entertainment Television, or Miss White America; and see what happens. Jesse Jackson will be knocking down your door.

    I have the right “NOT” to be tolerant of others because they are different, weird, or tick me off.

    When 70% of the people who get arrested are black, in cities where 70% of the population is black, that is not racial profiling, it is the Law of Probability.

    I know what sex is, and there are not varying degrees of it. If I received sex from one of my subordinates in my office, it wouldn’t be a private matter or my personal business. I would be “FIRED” immediately!

    I believe that if you are selling me a milk shake, a pack of cigarettes, a newspaper or a hotel room, you must do it in English! As a matter of fact, if you want to be an American citizen, you should have to speak English!

    My father and grandfather didn’t die in vain so you can leave the countries you were born in to come over and disrespect ours. I think the police should have every right to shoot your sorry self if you threaten them after they tell you to stop. If you can’t understand the word “freeze” or “stop” in English, see the above lines.

    I feel much safer letting a machine with no political affiliation recount votes when needed. I know what the definition of lying is.

    I don’t think just because you were not born in this country, you are qualified for any special loan programs, government sponsored bank loans or tax breaks, etc., so you can open a hotel, coffee shop, trinket store, or any other business.

    We did not go to the aid of certain foreign countries and risk our lives in wars to defend their freedoms, so that decades later they could come over here and tell us our constitution is a living document; and open to their interpretations.

    I don’t hate the rich. I don’t pity the poor. I know pro wrestling is fake, but so are movies and television. That doesn’t stop you from watching them.

    I believe a self-righteous liberal or conservative with a cause is more dangerous than a Hell’s Angel with an attitude.

    I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every penny he made and continue to make more. If it ticks you off, go and invent the next operating system that’s better, and put your name on the building. Ask your buddy that invented the Internet to help you.

    It doesn’t take a whole village to raise a child right, but it does take a parent to stand up to the kid; and smack their little behinds when necessary, and say “NO!”

    I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please don’t pretend they are a political statement. And, please, stay home until that new lip ring heals. I don’t want to look at your ugly infected mouth as you serve me french fries!

    I am sick of “Political Correctness.” I know a lot of black people, and not a single one of them was born in Africa; so how can they be “African-Americans”? Besides, Africa is a continent. I don’t go around saying I am a European-American because my great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was from Europe. I am proud to be from America and nowhere else.

    And if you don’t like my point of view, tough. DON’T PASS IT ON!!

  3. Comedy gold! A certain cabbagy youtube videographer has made another moronic video based on the reich report where he rants and raves that Reich’s claim that the screams came from someone “physcially under developed” proves the screams came from trayvon. DERP!!!

  4. Today, let’s discuss possible motions in limine that the defense might submit.

    #1 – I would hope that they’ll submit one that seeks to prevent the state from using the term “profiled” since it has the capability to prejudice the jury without providing any evidence that it is illegal. In other words, even if Zimmerman did “profile” Trayvon, he didn’t commit a crime in doing so, and so it would be unfairly prejudicial to him for the state to use that term which carries an implication that the “profiler” is doing something wrong or illegal.

    #2 – I would also submit a motion in limine to prevent the state or any witness from saying that George Zimmerman was told or commanded not to follow Trayvon Martin or that he was told to get back in his truck, etc. – not only because it was not a “command” from the dispatcher, but also because following Trayvon Martin was not a crime. George was simply following the dispatcher’s earlier instruction (which actually was a command) to “just let me know if this guy does anything else.”

    #3 – to limit any witness or the state to offer any speculation that George Zimmerman was suspicious of Trayvon Martin because of his skin color or because of the hoodie that he was wearing. There is no evidence that suggests either of those is true, and it would be severely prejudicial to George for anyone to speculate in front of the jury that George was motivated by those factors.

    Okay, that’s a start.

      • The funny (or sad) thing is that the first two make so much sense, but for the judge to grant them, she’d have to basically throw out the Affidavit of Probable Cause in this case, which is an extremely prejudicial document in the way it’s written. I think at some point the defense will have to move to have the charges thrown out due to the insufficiency of the information in that document. Nelson will never grant that, but that may present a very strong argument for appeal.

  5. I can’t see Judge Nelson allowing anything the defense can use unless it is pretty much meaningless and also denying anything the Prosecution can use unless it is superficial enough to appear as if she is taking a well balanced stance in this Case BY denying it. Notice how many prosecution motions there are…that if she even allows half of them…it seriously jeopardizes GZ’s defense. It at least needs the outward appearance that GZ received a “Fair Trial” for those who have not followed this case closely…”what you don’t know won’t hurt you”….just George, which is fine in their book.

  6. “Add your comments on what witnesses you think the State may not call.”

    Wow, where to begin… there are so many witnesses who present a problem for the state, it might actually be easier to predict the short list of who the state will call.

    1) I definitely don’t see them calling the first experts (H&H) who analyzed the voices on the 911 recordings. Their conclusion that it was George screaming for help before the shot, um, well, kinda speaks for itself why the state will try to supress that report! They’ll try to get Reich on the stand instead.

    2) Tracy Martin… first it wasn’t his son’s voice, then after speaking with a personal injury attorney it was… first his son was with him all week, then he was with Brandy all week… last saw his son at 8:30 (impossible)… never went out looking for his missing son… this deadbeat dad has told so many lies and his actions were so inconsistent with the Tea & Skittles narrative, the jury will look at this man and think the apple (TM) didn’t fall far from the tree (Tracy). They’ll use the mother on the stand for sympathy

    3) Wit 8… she was coached by Crump, ‘helped’ by someone named Francine, is a minor / isn’t a minor, lied to prosecutors under oath, never came forward, much of what she has to say is hearsay from ‘Trevon’ which opens the door even wider to question TM’s character and credibility, and on and on and on and on. The state definitely shouldn’t want this witness on the stand, but I don’t see how they can wiggle out of having her testify considering the state’s entire PCA was constructed around her early statements.

    4) Pretty much every LEO involved with TM and/or the case prior to ‘special’ prosecutor Corey taking over the reins… MDSPD, Miami Gardens PD, SPD, Wolfinger, Serino, etc.

    5) Chad… this kid knows waaaaaay more than he has been allowed to say!

    6) Boobie… tweeted pics and comments about getting high the night before, stated in his interview with the police that he and TM went to the 7-11 earlier the same day to purchase a Black ‘n Mild. (speaking of which, did anybody ever bother to subpoena that video?) I may be getting cousins mixed up here, but is Boobie also the same cuz who tweeted about TM assaulting a bus driver earlier the same week…

  7. Captain – thanks so much for the Talk Left contribution on the case, I still remain a bit confused on whats coming in, the on going problem remains Judge N.

    Richard Hornsby’s interview back in Jan 2013 answered many questions from Trisha/owner at “webslueth.”

    TM supporters HARP OVER & OVER & OVER: “GZ is a LIAR, he changed his story, LIAR!”

    Richard said when Trisha asked if “GZ’s lying will come into the trial” & Richard responded: “NO, UNLESS GZ had been convicted of lying, it won’t come in.” It seems, this may too be the problem with the jewelry/burglar tool, NO conviction of TM. BDLR, continuing to POLLUTE the jury pool, will at least bring back up PRIOR trouble GZ had been in. Hopefully, MOM/West return the argument in spades on TM and WHY the trouble TM had been in is relevant.

    I find it outrageous that though not convicted, BDLR wants to bring in GZ’s prior arrest. I fear that since TM was not convicted at the time of his death of drug use, PRIOR students at KROP had been arrested by LE in previous years for drug use & drugs, I assume BEFORE the diversion program was established.

    TM should have been given a hair follicle test, it would have shown possibly how many months back that drugs were used, in other words, on going use. OUTRAGEOUS but not surprising that BDLR wants to leave out EVIDENCE in the Autopsy.

    • I say make a trade. George’s past comes in IF Trayvon’s past comes in. Whose past would you prefer to defend in particular as it relevance pertains to the evening of 2/26/12? Would George’s doctor and nurse games when he was a minor chile contribute to shooting someone in self defense? How about living up to his nickname, “Tugboat,” by defending a friend against a cop hiding in disguise? Was that noble or was it somehow motivated by racial hatred? And who wouldn’t defend themselves against an angry out of control wife?

      Compare that to Martin’s past. No need for me to elaborate. You know the deal.

      Whose past will impact the jury?

    • Even though the defense has had limited funds, we do not know, for sure, if they paid for any kind of drug tests and we still do not if the defense has a full tox report. It is possible that one was done and we have been left out in the dark. Isn’t that true of many other things, that I strongly suspect the Defense has in its possession? Get over it. MOM ain’t talking. He has said from the beginning that he would prefer to not release anything.

  8. I was thinking about the state trying to prevent the defense from using the Toxicology report on TM. From most articles I read, it seems that most are referring to the small little section on the autopsy report, that showed the pot levels in TM’s body. That appeared to me to be a report from a local lab who didn’t run any extensive testing, just to get an initial idea if he had drugs in his system. If I remember correctly, that little section had no identifying info including his name or anything else. None of us ever saw the full toxicology report that was done by NMS Labs. Is the state trying to keep the full tox report out of the trial? It’s also possible that the defense may have had their own testing done. The lab keeps the left over samples for a certain period of time in case further testing is required. I would think that a more sophisticated lab, with advanced technology would come up with a much more accurate report than a small local lab.

    The toxicology report most definitely has everything to do with the incident, as the samples were taken after he was shot. The state cannot claim that it is irrelevant information. If there were even higher levels of pot, or possibly even other drugs in his system, it would exonerate George when he told the NEN operator that he looked like he was on drugs or something. I don’t believe Nelson has any choice but to allow the tox report to be used, but of course we know Nelson.

    • NMS Labs did the toxicology report. Don’t know – nor will I argue – if the quantities of THC and / or cannabinoids present indicate that TM was high or not at the time of the shooting; but what I will acknowledge is that he did have those metabolites in his system. An inarguable fact, and one that – to at least some degree – corroborates George’s suspicions…

    • You are absolutely correct and your comments are right on. As I said in a previous post, we do not know if a full tox report even exists.

      It is possible that the defense ordered additional tests but they have had limited funds so IDK. MOM would not tell us anyway. That is his style. .. to keep us partially in the dark about what you and I and others consider to be important.

      • Just published my new post on the case, talking about the prosecutions case by John Galt and a rebuttal by Chip Bennet, sorry for the length

            • Correct. Sorry that I forgot and did not read all of your post so I need to go back and check it again because I did not realize you had made comment until later.

                • Great commentary bori .. I can see McDaniel’s influence on you.

                  You said this and I agree but I doubt that MOM will let him get on the stand even he wants to.

                  My belief is that the whole prosecution’s strategy is to force GZ to testify on the stand.

                  So you believe the State will call on witness 8? Hummmm. IDK about that .

                  • I know that is not a popular position, but unless the DCA allows the Crump deposition and something new comes out of that, she will be called on to testify.
                    I’ll know for sure if Judge N grants the motion to squashed any mention of TM past wrongdoing, then BDLR will not have to worry about any testimony, that she might have about what happened to TM, after he left the 7-11.

                    The jury could find her forgive her for lying about the hospital if the circumstances where as described; Sybrina sitting next to her crying, they may feel sympathy for her.

                    Anyhow, the State needs her to get TM from the Condo to the store and back. Without her they have a gap in the story. She does not help much with anything else but that gap and TM’s state of mind is important to the their case.

                    Its a gamble, but this whole prosecution is a gamble for the State.

  9. George Zimmerman’s father: My son faces ‘malicious prosecution’

    Robert Zimmerman, father of murder defendant George Zimmerman, is complaining about a state audio expert who reported hearing George Zimmerman make righteous statements during a call to police just before he shot Trayvon Martin.

    “It now appears the state has somehow found an ‘expert’ that hears words and sentences that only he can,” Robert Zimmerman wrote in a blog post Thursday.


    • Rene just will not give it up. Dear God… please tell me how trying to raise money on which to live is relevant to this story. Wonder why she she finds it impossible to mention that the Scheme team made it almost impossible for them to be safe like she is. I guess she thinks they deserve to live in hiding.

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