Home » Uncategorized » May 21, 2013 – Open Thread

May 21, 2013 – Open Thread

George and OmaraJack Cashill “To convict an innocent man of murder, the prosecutors will have to deny him a  fair trial. Apparently, they are prepared to do just that.”


Defense files response wanting Trayvon’s Marijuana use to be weighed by Jury.  http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0513/052113_reply_limine_toxicology.pdf

Animated-ModernSign-UpdatedTom Owen wants a large fee to sit for deposition.  Defense files for a reasonable fee to be set.  http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0513/052113_reasonable_fee.pdf

A week today, the Defense team will hold what may be the last hearing before the start of Jury Selection on June 10th.  A number of filings will be heard.  Please vote on your prediction of how Judge Nelson will rule.

Motion in limine regarding Trayvon Martin  What will the Judge keep out?

State’s motion in limine regarding calling of witnesses

Motion in limine regarding opinion as to appropriate penalty or disregard of law

Motion for protective order/motion in limine regarding toxicology

Motion in limine regarding self-serving hearsay statements of defendant

Motion to limit/exclude improper opinion evidence

Motion in limine regarding prior criminal history

State’s Response to Evidentiary Hearing Request

We await the higher court’s decision on deposing Mr. Crump.  If you haven’t submitted a vote, please do so.

For newcomers, please know that racist remarks will be trashed.  If you are presenting yourself as a George Zimmerman supporter, please keep in mind this man is in a fight for his life.  Conduct yourself in a way that won’t bring heartache and/or embarrassment to the Zimmerman family.

If you’d like to share something privately, you can email me at nettles@bell.net

For those who are able, please make a donation to the defense fund. Thank you for helping.


250 thoughts on “May 21, 2013 – Open Thread

  1. Well banned from D-man’s blog for the comment “rolls the eyes” after getting chastised for posting off topic. It is blowhards like D-man and Sundance that make it extremely difficult to bring people who are “on the fence” over to conservatisms.

    • Ya know, the ‘eyeroll’ thing was a bit imprudent, and I had a bad feeling about his inevitable response, but banning is silly. He’s become rather terse in his replies and suggestions. Who knows; he’s done some of the best work out there on this case. Perhaps he’s stressed out at the moment? Give it a day and offer an olive branch. Our diversity is our strength! lol

        • Tension? Not likely. .They are independent thinkers and have often had different views of the issues. Seems like there still exists multiple Witness 8 “theories.”

          The only time I have ever sensed/detected any tension is when SD sent everyone over to Dman’s blog without warning and IIRC, DMan seemed visibly disturbed about it because he was not ready for that. Notice, however, how quickly accommodated us at the time. That is the mark of class.

          • Last week, Sundance posted his entry about the two DeeDees. The same day, D-Man posted an entry about Trayvon’s girlfriend, in which he stated that he does not ascribe to the two DeeDee theory and told people if they want to talk about two DeeDees to go to the Treehouse. I’m not sure which post came first, but it’s clear there’s some tension on that issue at least.

          • I agree with that! Diwataman showed a lot of class with how he handled that situation.

            Sundance and his team had sent out signals that they were growing tired of moderating a daily open thread on the blog.

            After I was banned, I still sent emails to Sundance if I saw misinformation on the blog and I noted he’d correct it but said nothing of the earlier posts with the wrong information.

            Diwataman posted something I thought I could help him with so I emailed him. He graciously invited me to post on his blog anytime I wished.

            So I did. Shortly thereafter, Diwataman posted one of my comments on Sundance’s blog. Rumpole asked where the information came from. Diwataman linked the comment. Rumpole and a few others came to Diwataman’s blog to thank me for helping and say hi. It was the next day or maybe two days later, Sundance closed down the daily threads and directed you all to Diwataman’s blog.

            I’ve always suspected Sundance got mad at Diwataman for allowing me to post when Sundance tried to shut me down. At first, I wasn’t sure but when Sundance again directed everyone to Diwataman’s blog after Diwataman said he and Sundance never discussed this and no he wasn’t going to host a daily open thread, I thought Sundance was throwing a tantrum on Diwataman for allowing my voice to be heard or for directing traffic away from his blog. I could be wrong.

            • You could very well be right. I, too , have been targeted to include threats of eternal moderation and my integrity was openly aired by an anonymous member of the admin staff, including directly stating that I may not be trustworthy. I requested an email about what I had posted that required it to be deleted with an explanation but never heard a word so I still have no idea why I was publicly chastised and humiliated. Others have noticed that I am not treated with respect and have called it to my attention because since I virtually stopped following their threads and no longer receive notifications except for rare exceptions so I would never know unless they had the courage and decency to send me an email. I think I get along fine with SD and a few others on the staff but one of them refuses to reply to any of my posts or questions to her so I know who it is and so do my friends there .

              I really felt like I was walking on eggshells over there and that anything I said could be misconstrued to mean something not intended to be respectful but noticed that those in favor can speak at will. IOW Little Ole Me was sooo unappreciated. I still visit because I have many friends there who I respect including some of the staff. I love Sharon’s blogs about the good old days and she is very wise, even though she, too, has unfairly criticized me. Clearly the staff is one team and never makes mistakes and SD would NEVER side with a poster. It is what it is. Post there at your own risk.

              I feel like I was banned even if not officially but here I am a welcome guest in your home as well as Rumpole’s and DMan’s places.

              You and I have had private conversations about what happened to you over there so I know more than what was said on the blog. We have some good talent here, like minpin and others who no longer post there.

              Thanks for having me. 😀

              • I’m glad to have you here.

                I think it’s rude to publicly whisper in front of others. Hinting at more information that hasn’t been shared is like whispering in front of others.

                Yes, you and I have emailed about what happened at the CTH. However, I have been open and transparent about it all. It’s all been publicly posted. I am not aware of the “other” information you refer to.

                Perhaps you can refresh my memory in an email. Let’s make sure we are on the same page and understanding, because I honestly don’t know what you are referring to here.

                • I am confused about this: I am not aware of the “other” information you refer to.

                  In which post did I mention “other” information? I cannot find that.

                  • You and I have had private conversations about what happened to you over there so I know more than what was said on the blog.

                    Email me what more you think there is b/c I don’t know what it is. Thanks.

                    • Sorry if this sounded confusing. What I meant was that I know from YOU that that was there more to what happened than was revealed on the blog. I also later asked SD what happened and he replied on the daily thread but it was not exactly what you said. If you think there is more to discuss then send me an email at either account.

                  • My banning from CTH was based on something I said on D-man’s page. Sundance had such a tantrum that he posted a big screenshot of it on CTH along with a verbal lashing and such “class acts” as canadacan and yhtzee (I always screw that name up) made comments such as “hope the door doesn’t hit you on the ass on the way out. Sorry but CTH is turning into the Freddy Leatherman of the pro Zimmerman side and it saddens me because it was a wonderful blog for a long time.

            • Most of you are slow learners when it comes to SD.

              I was given the treatment and it was not for the reasons that were cited on the CTH. It stretched back much further and that is about all I have to say.

      • I think I’ll follow your advice analyst. Diversity is our greatest asset. As I posted in the other thread I totally understand D-man’s concept, It’s just super difficult to discuss this case in a linear fashion on individual topics with sooooo many overlapping and convoluted issues

        • Not sure anyone has ever followed my advice before. I’m at a loss…

          We have (in my opinion) several wonderful groups or subsets of citizen sleuths (and random commenters) and it sure is interesting and, hopefully, fruitful. Heck, I posted a comment (two, I think) at TCTH for the first time ever today. Usually not my cup of tea, but someone (Tara?) really picked up on one of my hot-button issues, and – next thing I knew – several folks had agreed, expounded, etc. Good stuff. Cheers!

              • How about wondering what the catalyst was for ABC to destroy all of the rest of the tapes. That is the great mystery as well as why no one subpoenaed Matt Gutman to get his personal copies PLUS the OTHER tapes he has that only a few ever mention. Remember that Gutman said he had MORE THAN ONE other conversation aside from the Crump interview.

                Maybe he wants his payday, too. The term for that escapes me. LMAO.

                • Just thinking out loud here… they got the parents’ consent to interview DD under the ruse that she was a minor, but when it was discovered that she was actually an adult would that mean that they didn’t have proper legal consent and ~had~ to destroy the tapes/recordings?

                  The way ABC retroactively tacked the surviving five minutes of audio to an old story would have been a plausible way to say “Oops, we ~thought~ we had destroyed all copies.”

                  • ABC is lying. What’s new ?

                    DIdn’t one or more of the networks also “accidentally” edit the NEN call? Those tapes exist. If our government has copy of all of our telephone conversations, then someone has a copy of the tapes. Ask Matt or put his arrogant butt under oath.

              • Not sure if this comment made it or not.

                If ABC or Gutman destroyed evidence in an ongoing criminal investigation, I do believe that is still a serious crime in Florida, but since there have been no charges, maybe the State flexed its muscles yet again.

                  • When BDLR was questioning Mr. West didn’t he tell us that the Defense left the State out of the discussion on what was going on with the ABC tape?

                    Mr. West said they (the State) were advised via their motions.

      • Diwataman has not banned anyone.

        Although under the circumstances he would have been completely justified in having done so in this particular instance.

          • “And why do you feel that? I’m sincerely interested in your opinion.”

            Apologies to Nettles for this very off-topic post, but you did ask.

            About 3 hours before you posted your plug for your video “creation”, Diwataman explained

            ” I really don’t like my blog posts treated as “Open Threads” no matter if they are related to the case, if you had a blog you wouldn’t want it treated that way either. And really it’s disruptive to readers who click on this post to read about what the topic is about only to find discussion not related. ”

            and apparently you ignored that.

            Then he said, in response to your “plug” post

            “This comment doesn’t belong here but your other comment link regarding the continuance does. Please don’t treat my posts as open threads.”

            (he goes out of his way to illustrate the difference in “on topic” and “off topic” from his point of view)

            at which point what you should have done was acknowledged that he was in the right and you were in the wrong.

            Instead, you channeled your inner teenybopper

            “rolls eyes…whatever!”

            He’s been much more patient and gracious with you than you have a right to expect.

            And you’ve been a jerk.

            So when he says he didn’t ban you, I’m more inclined to believe he’s the one to be believed.

  2. After watching the clickorlando piece about Sanford Pastors on the Zimmerman case it scares the hell out of me that the US DOJ seems perfectly ok with GZ being the atoning sacrificial lamb for decades of perceived injustices.

    • Not to get political, even though with this case it is hard not to, but there is a lot of that going on in our government at this time. It seems decisions are made for expediency and not for what is right of lawful. The DOJ has been no exception.

      I commented to Nettles and Hooson that to expect the Black church leaders to what is essentially going against TM and support any decision that may favor GZ is too much to ask or expect. The local community is fully wed to the idea of GZ being the aggressor or support some punishment for GZ.

      This is something more than just trying to decide guilt or innocence, as far as many are concerned, they’ve already done that, this is about punishing GZ.

      • Anyone who does not see what is going on with those pastors getting seats just ain’t paying attention. That is both witness and jury intimidation wrapped up in one little deal. They ain’t fooling me.

        • I can definitely see someone feeling intimidated, I just hope they feel intimidated to tell the truth.

          It just seems to me that the City of Sanford, the State of Florida are putting their hopes on the clergy to tamp things down if they go sour, but forget that they were the one doing the agitation just a few months earlier.

          They relegated their duties by bowing to pressure and charge GZ, and now they relegating their duties by putting it the hands of others to maintain the peace, bad precedent either way.

          BTW, I am not against the clergy helping, as I know they can, so calling into question whether it is a good idea to put the same people that wanted GZ’s head on a platter as your peacekeepers.

          • You cannot possibly believe that those black pastors intend to be peacekeepers. This is planned ruse disguised to look like that. Smoke and mirrors?

            It can be worse if you can imagine the majority at that trial, both inside and out, are birds of a feather.

            • Jordan your are right, that is why I said I hope that they can be peacekeepers. The train has left the station and it is rolling, I am just hoping the brakes will work.

            • I think that those black pastors are interested in peace.

              They are equally invested in protecting their communities. They know full well the challenges that are faced daily by the citizens and their parishioners, from within and from outside.

                  • If that H.D. Rucker Minister is there, I’m crying foul! In the article (Page 3) that Ms. Robles wrote about donations for Sybrina and George, Minister H.D. Rucker said of George Zimmerman donors,

                    “The guy is living paycheck to paycheck, he kills a teenager and all of a sudden, he’s got $200,000?” said Sanford minister H.D. Rucker. “What does that say about our society? There are racists out there.”

                    This, btw, was the article in which Ms. Robles printed my full name and facebook post from the defense legal site on facebook.

                    Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/11/2794656_p3/trayvon-martins-mother-got-about.html#storylink=cpy

                    The media needs to get the message, it’s not racists, it’s not gun lovers, it’s not only conservatives that fight the injustice we are seeing. Let’s get vocal and make sure the reporters know, we are everyday people fighting back against the wrong the State of Florida is bringing upon George and we are all over the world.

                    • I had not previously read the linked article. Even though FB is in the public domain, I’m not sure why using your full name was necessary or appropriate. And was that supposed to be a news story or was that sheer advocacy? (a jordan-esque rhetorical question)

                    • All good questions. Ms. Robles ran that story at a time when the public was demanding to see the list of who could possibly donate to this man.

                      People wanted to donate but they were afraid of being “outed”. Mr. O’Mara made sure the court communicated the donor list would stay confidential.

                      I knew at the time I posted it was public. I’ve never complained about it. I outed myself on purpose so the media would get to know that the definition they were describing of a GZ donor was not descriptive of me.

                      Once your fear is gone, your enemy loses power over you. I encourage others to come to the trial and not remain silent. Post and email those in the media. Let them get to know you and why you feel strongly about this case. It matters and it will help understanding.

                    • IIRC, she outed Osterman. It was the Trayvonites I think who started that petition demanding that she be fired. So what happened? The NY Times welcomed her with open arms.

                    • I am so glad you see through this Pastor Plan. I have heard them say some vile things that for some “strange” reasons never appear on the internet. This is NOT what it appears to be or what the media wants you to believe. PLEASE hear what I am NOT saying.

              • I have read and heard some of their comments. Their idea of justice is a conviction. Maybe it’s matter of perspective but I did not detect any heartfelt desired for a peaceful result without George getting screwed.

      • …. to expect the Black church leaders to what is essentially going against TM and support any decision that may favor GZ is too much to ask or expect.

        I understand what you’re saying, but on the other hand, aren’t churches supposed to be role models and lead the populace, not the other way around….?

        • Ideally yes, and we expect them to be. Realistically, in some issues their point of view, is not exactly conventional. Their leadership is part of the issue, not discussing whether right or wrong, but their perspective does change how they react to things.

          How many parishioners would a pastor have, if he espouses a different view than 90% of his flock? What I am saying is that in some instances rather than solve the problem, they become part of the problem and not the solution.

          I know people in Sanford, who attend these same Black churches, and what I hear is not promising. There remains a persistent feeling that GZ instigated the incident, as such he is guilty, maybe not murder but something. Combine with old feuds and hurt feelings from years long past, and it is a bad recipe.

          I want to emphasize this, I am not, not saying that they are advocating for violence or riots, the pastor I spoke to, knows that is counter productive and will make things worse. What I am saying is that a straight acquittal will not be seen positively. Some will see it as quite as a confirmation of past pre-judices and biases, again.

          Is not that they are unaware, or do not know who TM was, or what he was capable of, the issue is deeper, and transcends it. GZ used a gun to shot to death a young man, who even if one a wrong course, as long as he was alive there was a chance for him. His death and what is perceived as the lack of interest in getting justice for TM, within the SPD and local authorities, is palpable in a community that is beset with crime, and unsolved killings.

          “The legalities are not important, the bottom line is we have a dead young man, and we know who killed him, now we need to bring him to justice”, that is a quote from a church elder at one on the largest churches in Sanford.

  3. Will someone tell me what hearing BLDR went bonkers over Martin’s photo at the seven eleven? I’ll find the link if someone will let me know. Didn’t Nettles say it started at the 38 minute mark?

      • OFF Topic, kind of: (Prosecutorial misconduct, Jodi Arias case)

        I was reading an article about nut job Jodie Arias a few minutes ago & was surprised at what appears to be prosecutorial misconduct. Don’t get me wrong, imo, the jury should give Jodi the death penalty, Jodi ask for it as opposed to life in prison. It seemed there was more than enough evidence to convict Jody.

        BUT: it is the penalty phase & Jodi had a child hood friend that was going to testify during this phase on Jodi’s behalf.

        Prosecutorial Misconduct:

        Martinez, (Prosecutor,) said that “he had merely interviewed Womack, (Jodi’s childhood friend,) about her testimony last week, on May 15, and asked her pointed questions about her drug use and unreported income that could subject her to criminal prosecution. Womack decided to invoke her Fifth Amendment right in response to his questions,” Martinez said.

        Jodi’s attorneys’s have alleged 2 other incidences of Prosecutorial Misconduct by Prosecutors in this case, Jodi’s witness did not show up on her behalf.


        imo, Jodi is a real POS, but she deserves a fair trial, one in which it appears the Prosecutor is willing to threaten her witness with crimes should she testify on Jodi’s behalf. It seems, imo, that it is witness intimidation. Jodi’s attorney’s have ask for a mistrial & to withdraw from the case. What a freaking mess.

      • Thanks. I watched up to the 37 minute mark where MOM mentions the seven eleven and they then take a break. When they return the volume drops so law that I cannot hear it but I can see BLDR frantically waving while MOM is ignoring him, looking out in space. Is there a transcript of this? Damn. this looks like Bernie Gone Wild.

    • I posted the hearing in that response. I know you discuss the blogs through your email. I would suggest that if you think there should be a link and you know the links don’t show in yahoo you visit the page and look for it.

      It may save you a lot of aggravation.

      • I actually do that but only if there appears to be a link which was not the case in your post. Sorry, it’s one of the inadequacies of email but I usually can figure it out. The volume drops in the link I used after the break so I could not hear what was being said. I did notice the gyrations of BLDR.

        • I thought my comment about at this minute this happens and at that minute this occurs would alert you to the fact there is a video there. I’ll know for next time. No worries.

          • You should not change a thing to accommodate me but thanks for your kind gesture. I know that I risk missing a link when using Yahoo email but that is my choice. If the link is followed by any comments, then it usually appears but I have seen exceptions to that, too,. so please do what works for you.

  4. Well, I was going to apologize to D-man and exercise some diplomacy and give the “his house/his rules speech…..but never mind. Not only does he choose to flat out lie about banning me, he decided to get self righteous about it and insulting. You sir…..are a DICK!

    • It occurs to me that if you’re of the belief that a given blog owner is a ‘dick’, then maybe just staying away from that blog is the best thing to do. It will save you some stress and frustration. Anyways, life’s too short to get worked up over the small stuff and there are plenty of other blogs and forums around.

      • People go off topic all the time at CTH. That said, I think it’s more of who you are rather than what you contribute. Recently I saw that a long time poster at CTH posted something they were not supposed to post. The Admin removed and no big deal. However, I have seen at CTH a not so long time poster do same, and get kicked out.

        Dman has posted about a blog being like his home and the commentators his guests. Yes it is important to treat your host kindly, but a host also has an obligation to treat his guests kindly also. It’s mutual. I think most misunderstandings could be cleared up privately by email.

        I was banned at CTH for trying to be a peacekeeper and then was badgered by an Admin for not joining in the beating up of another poster who happens to be black. I don’t go to blogs or forums to beat up on other posters. Tara because she found the NBC tape is still at the CTH despite the fact she called CTH (paraphrasing) “Sick Right Wing Wackos” and stormed out, then came back (apparently NOT banned for that) and apologized. And of course, we all know what happened to Nettles despite her huge contributions. Banned just for her difference of opinion.

        I do think Dman has somewhat of an elitist air about him. A blog is a blog … YES !!! But it also creates a community. I believe very strongly that every blog should have a common area for people to post other than what the topic is. You have your topic led by the blog owner, and then a community area so that people can bandy about other ideas they have or just kid around with each other or discuss other news items … so you become like family. Some blogs just become too rigid, people just stop commenting, which may be the intent of the blog owner in the first place. Just read me … don’t comment.

        • Well Stated. I think blog owners should have thicker skin. Opinions are shared of other commentators thoughts and ideas but when giving feedback to the blog owner sometimes, you feel like you have to walk on egg-shells.

          To all who post here please feel free to disagree with me. At times if it makes you feel better to insult me, I’ll do my best to ignore it. I’m pretty good at ignoring insults. I do value feedback that gets me to look at the information differently and I wouldn’t want to squash that from anyone.

        • A list of people banned at CTH would be interesting especially with links as to why. Does anyone have one?

      • I agree coreshift and that Is what I have elected to do. It has been made clear I am unwelcome so I stay away. I much prefer nettles page anyway as I feel a more relaxed environment is much more conducive to the free exchange of ideas

        • I didn’t think he was angry with you about the off topic post until you came over here and started complaining about him. You had to know he would read your comments here. In my opinion you’ve shown very poor form. You should have just sent him a private message about the nature of your posts rather than air your dirty laundry over here. D-Man is a reasonable guy, but he wants things on his blog to be a certain way. You can either respect that or you can stay off his blog, but ranting about him on another blog just makes you look small, and it just brings division that we don’t need here.

  5. In regard to TM and the plight of many in his demographic, I attended the award’s day ceremony at a local high school where one of my offspring is graduating. As the seniors filed into the auditorium in their caps and gowns, I noticed something askew. I just read from the school system’s website: there should have been approximately 30% AA students. Of the 400 or so graduating seniors, less than twenty – not a percentage, a quantity – were AA. Very sad…

  6. Nettles – I was reading your comment in which you stated “TM was referred to as a” former student” and it was announced later that he died. As someone that worked in the school system, if a student passed, we announced it IMMEDIATELY, counselors were available for those upset. The announcement sounded something like, “We are saddened to announce we have lost a student due on, the date they died.”

    imo, TM could very well have been expelled from Dr. Krop, his 3rd suspension, a poor attendance record, & that doesn’t include if TM’s behavior may have been a distraction in classes for those trying to learn, teachers usually pink slip those kids for in school suspension just to get them out of their class. We don’t know TM’s entire record, I BET MOM/West do!

    Since TM has already failed for the year, it would make sense.

    • I note he is never described a formally living at such and such an address. There is a reason he is described as a former student when you factor in the school’s response to his death, which was no response until March 21st.

      • I think that the school records will reflect that, and MOM will have that information. The way the school system treated the whole thing is suspicious, but lets remember that they are other reasons for that as well. The whole fiasco with the School system and its disciplinary rules.

        • In the response from the defense posted today, they do say he was on suspension for an empty baggie of pot.

          I want to know where the other student that Mr. Crump referred to would fit in with that.

  7. Pingback: Manufactured Drama – please ignore, this is not important to you I’m sure | DiwataMan

    • So they know Trayvon brought marijauna with him from home and that he smoked at least once after arrving in Sanford.

      My vote is the jury should be allowed to give whatever weight they want to this evidence. It’s not the court’s job to decide the weight. Leave it to the jury.

      • It doesn’t appear that anyone did any further testing than what was on the autopsy report. That’s too bad because the stuff that is/was legal to buy in many convenience stores, which I believe is made of treated herbs of some sort don’t show up in testing unless special tests are run on the samples. From what I’ve read it freaks you out much more than regular pot. Maybe someone who knows more about the synthetic pot can describe it.

        • I can’t imagine there being any other way of the defense finding it out other than someone telling them. Unless there was something on his phone that talked about it. A text or something.

          • True, I have forgotten about that. We knew that the cousin tweeted how stone they were the night before, so that might have led the Defense to question if he provided the drugs or TM brought them up himself.

            Regardless, by this answer the Defense is getting it on the record that TM had transported drugs with him from Miami, in case of an appeal.

    • Thanks for the link.

      The state must have given the defense a bad copy of the 7-Eleven video that doesn’t run at the proper rate.

      Once you see a version that runs at one second per second all of that “swaying” at the counter disappears.

        • “Do you have a link to the ‘correct’ video?”

          I don’t remember now, the better part of a year later, where I found it, although you could spend hours on Google searching out my comments in several different places from back then to see if I included a link back then (I think I did).

          Of course no guarantee that wherever I found it still has it available.


            • When I first saw the video online, whereever it was that I saw it, I noticed that the numbers on the timestamp were not changing quickly enough nor was the slower rate even consistant.

              And I noticed the same problem on other sites hosting a copy of it at the time.

              Eventually I found some site somewhere that had a copy that ran at one second per second every second, and things looked quite different.

      • Replying to myself to say I wonder if the state deliberately gave the defense a faulty copy of the 7-Eleven video to try to trick them into arguing something in court just so they could bring out a good copy to make the defense look foolish.

  8. Reading the comments today, it once again hit me what a diverse group of people we are. We have different ideologies, background and nationalities but we all have something in common, is a need for justice for GZ.

    Whether you believe in God or not, are right wing, left wing, no wing, liberal or conservative we all saw this as a wrong and are spending x amount of time trying to do what we can to help. Some of us are great reseachers, others have skills making video, some just comment (that would be me), but we have been brought together with a singular purpose of helping GZ.

    I think that while diversity can be a strength, it can rupture the community if we allow the different whatever get in the way. We can all learn from each other, even if we disagree, so lets remember our responsibility to be civil, and abide by everyone rules. You learn a lot more from someone that you don’t always agree with, than with people who always parrot the same thing we all think all the time. Our strength is our unity in purpose, lets not forget that.

    Sermon from the Rev. Bori over!

    • I try to live by this:

      We are all here to help one another, not change others to our way of thinking.

      However, I have openly admitted that I have tried to influence Nettles to get behind Wild Bill’s call for support. Hey, no one is perfect. It does concern me that anyone would suggest that he might be a violent Tea Party racist. That will not help him get 10,000 supporters to show up in Sanford and it simply is not true and I challenge anyone to prove it.

    • $3,300 is pretty high, depending on how long he has to travel to get there. It isn’t right to not pay him for travel time, but that is customarily less than the cost of deposition time. I charge deposition by the half day, and travel at an hourly rate not to exceed 5 hours/day or similar. Expenses for travel and living are pass through. $3,300 plus expenses is pretty high, but if Own has to be away for two overnights, it’s not out of line. O’Mara’s motion suggests a total of $500 – $800. $800 is less than my half-day minimum charge; and I’ve never had an opponent complain about the size of my fee.

      • cboldt – can the Defense possibly win this Motion? Outrageous, the State has deep pockets, the taxpayers pay.

        I wouldn’t be surprised if Judge N suggests to the Defense to use SKYPE.

        • IIRC, Owen wasn’t listed as Class A. Does the State have an obligation in light of this motion to reveal whether or not they intend on calling him?

        • Judges are reluctant to step on the expert’s toes for something like fees. They might suggest a concession, but ordering one is a tough remedy. Especially when the expert’s fees aren’t adjusted to favor or disfavor.
          The only think the defense might save with a video depo is the cost of travel and living (not that that part is cheap), the deposition fee is for the time.

        • I don’t “practice law” in the usual sense. I worked as an engineer for about 18 years then earned a JD from an accredited law school. Most of my work is product safety related, but I cover a range from heavy industrial machinery to household goods. Been doing product safety stuff for about 15 years. I do some patent work too, but that’s probably less than a sixth of my time.

          Most of the product safety work is preventive or prospective in nature. I really enjoy the expert witness work, except the downside is that it follows a significant loss, often a serious personal injury or death.

          • Re: your patent work, ever heard of Intergraph v. Intel? One of my good friends (DVL) did some fine legal work on that, and on several similar cases, as well.

        • I’m unclear why the defense would even want to depose Tom Owen, unless it would be to ask him questions like who hired him by the state.

          It’sMichaelnotMike had a post about Owens on Mike McdANIELS Blog. I hope I am not getting into any trouble to repost his comment here-

          “IMO Owen is not going to be used by the State. Aside from all the standard reasons for keeping him out, if he was allowed to testify, MOM West can impeach and discredit his testimony with prior statements about his software being inconclusive.

          Even if Owen testified as a plain ol’ expert, telling the jury what his finely tuned ears and tubed-based macheen told him who is who, MOM West can still bring in his previous opinion.

          I would expect that knowing this Berangela de la Nifong has no intention of calling Owen to the stand. He’s tainted goods. Discrediting him would be like shooting fish into a barrel.

          And that’s before going over with him on the stand these most impressive books Mr. Owen has “recently” published:


          Tom Owen, Scaling the Fretboard (Chappell Music 1973)

          Tom Owen, The Chord Coloring Book (Chappell Music 1974)

          Tom Owen, Tenor Banjo (Chappell Music 1975)

          Tom Owen, Lead Guitar (Chappell Music 1976)

          Tom Owen, The Classic Blues Singers (Chappell Music 1977)”

          I’m sorry Mr. Owen, but I would not use you to endorse Q-Tip.


          I’m just asking but, why would the defense want to depose someone who so easily can be discredited on the witness stand? Would the state try to use him in a manner that once his statements are out there for the jury, you can’t unring the bell?

          • ItsMichaelNotMike is one of my favorite commentators. I remember him from early days at CTH. I wasn’t paying attention when he got banned but I went in search of him after he left the CTH.

            Do you know where else he posts? I would love to have him join the conversation when he has time.

            He coined the phrase “Scheme Team” I hesitated to use it for a long time but the evidence is over-whelming. This civil lawyers are playing out a scheme they’ve used in the past.

            • Nettles – he commented for awhile at Mike McDaniel’s but a couple of months ago he posted that he had other demands on his time, work related projects I think.

              Speaking of the Scheme Team, here is one of MichaelNotMike’s comments on the Scheme Team:


              Mike, for the history books I can tell you the origin of the term “The Scheme Team.” It was by some guy who goes by the screen name ItsMichaelNotMike.
              Yes, it was yours truly.
              I archive all my blog posts and comments. Here it is:

              DATE CAPTURED: 2012-04-22 19:47:33
              UPDATED: 2012-04-22 19:47:33
              SOURCE OF ITEM: Update #10 (Part 2) The Trayvon Martin Shooting DeeDee Reveals The False Truths | The Last Refuge – Mozilla Firefox


          • To add to my above comment, the state has been trying to break the mostly non-existent bank of GZ’s defense. Owen is apparently trying to do the same with his excessive fees for someone who really has no factual data to give to the court. Like Reich, the state is looking for anyone that will say what they need them to say. I think pretty much everyone knows that many trial “experts” testify for those that are paying them to do so.

            • Perhaps not. He has his fees posted on his website. I assume they were set not knowing he’d be deposed in this case. If that is what he charges then so be it.

              I wonder if this is about getting before the Judge other “experts” who differ and whose opinion can easily be debunked. Does it help their argument to have none of them testify?

              • How can a state’s witness charge the defendant for a deposition… isn’t that a violation of the defendant’s constitutional right to confront all witnesses against him/her?

                That should be built into the fee he charges the state.

  9. “It is remarkable to take stock of this evidence and realize that it supports every single aspect of Zimmerman’s statement to the police. His injuries are consistent with his account of physical assault by Trayvon Martin. Martin’s gunshot wound occurred at the very short range described by Zimmerman, demolishing fantasies about a racist mall-cop wannabe stalking and murdering an innocent black kid for no reason. “

    – John Hayward


  10. It has been a pleasure reading the blog today and I learned a lot. MichaelnotMike and D-Man were what drew me to CTH way back when. I have sure missed MichelmotMike- even D-Man at times. D-man has a great sense of humor. But ya know what Minpin. Bori, Captain, nettles, art tart, ackbarsays, analyst1961,ottawa925, unitron, coreshift, hooson1st, jordan2222 (hope I didn’t leave anyone out) Common sense and facts are what I look for in comments – just like your comments and like the jury will do. No verbose blow hard comments- just highly intelligent opinions and facts. Good Nite all; as a commenter who used to post on a site during Casey Anthony trial would say- Roses on your pillows. (Minpin, didn’t you post there for a long time? I have always enjoyed your thoughtful direct and to the point posts). JFGZ!

  11. Now THIS is chuckleworthy.


    Over at CTH, the esteemed ringmaster posts the Defense’s Response To Toxicology Admissibility, and gives kudos to MOM for presenting the brief:

    “Well played.
    {for those keeping track, this is officially the 28th time I have complimented Mark O’Mara}”

    See? So there!

    Only problem is that it was apparently NOT the work of MOM, but Don West, who has affixed his signature to the document.

      • Hey coreshift, I’m gonna report you to Teacher Nettles . . . cuz, cuz you went over to CTH and posted 2 minutes later . . . an’ that’s no fairz. Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah.

        A. Tattletale

          • We need everyone on all sources weeding out information and bringing it back here to update our readers and posters.

            Thanks for all your work!

            PS: I really enjoy reading your tweets. I suck at twitter but you are a great teacher. Thank you.

        • I’m not just another pretty face JB. You can’t know what Coreshift was up to unless you’ve been over there yourself! 😉

          I appreciate all of you that find anything that could help us in the goal to getting Mr. Zimmerman out from under this charge and bringing it to the participants here.

          Mr. O’Mara’s credibilty is important in achieving that goal. He has to speak for George and he has to be believed.

          I’m confident that all the folks who have thrown their support into getting GZ as fair of a trial as we can will prevail. Those 6 citizens will take their job seriously. It is now GZ who is demanding a pubic airing of this case. Let Justice Be Done! May the truth be known.

          PS: I really like Sundance.

      • Gee maybe “SD” reads this blog for the Straight Dope. Just posted:

        “UPDATE: Major mistake on my part. I wrongly attributed the keen strategy to The O’Mara… I did not notice it was actually written by, and filed by, Don West. So I take back my compliment of O’Mara and place it where it should be – with Don West. Figures.

        “Here is the entire O’Mara Don West response:”
        Don’t like to say I told ya so, but . . .

    • Last I heard he got the right to subpoena them. I heard that twitter and facebook said they were going to fight their release but haven’t heard a thing about it.

      I think Mr. O’Mara got them but until reciprocal get released we can’t know for sure.

    • Jack you can expect a response about that from MOM soon. Some things are easy to rebut, others require to search case law to find an applicable response and counter the others argument and counter argument.

      The school records is one of those things where the law can rule against you, A very well reasoned response is needed if MOM wants to use the school records.

  12. Damn.. as fast as I read a post and try to reply. another one appears. i have had 75 to go for the last hour.

        • Uh, oh, Did I word my post in a confusing manner again. I do not know what this means:

          Naw. Let’s drop it. I won’t help us get George out from under the charge. JFGZ!!

          Dummy me is not getting it but if you think I was implying anything negative about you , then I misspoke.

          Your sarcasm says I was not clear. I hate it when this happens.

          • Relax Jordan. You did nothing wrong. It’s all good. It’s a dead subject.

            Keep going through the posts. There is lots and lots of news today.

            Let’s focus on helping George and the Zimmerman family. They deserve our focus and effort to fight the injustice.

            Never ever worry about upsetting me. I really, really like you and will ALWAYS give you the benefit of the doubt that you mean no harm. ♥

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