Home » Uncategorized » August 23, 2013 – Post Discussion

August 23, 2013 – Post Discussion

discussion group

George Zimmerman Discussion Thread – Post Verdict

#

Sex

Age

Race

Family

P. Video Interview

D. Video Interview

Information/Comments

B29

F

40s

Hispanic

Married 10 years, 8 kids

B29 Prosecution

B29 Defense

Recently moved to central Florida from Chicago. She enjoys watching the “Real Housewives” on television and works as a nurse on an Alzheimer’s section of a nursing home. She said she hadn’t paid much attention to the shooting. She said she has been arrested, but her case was disposed of. It’s not clear why she was arrested or exactly what happened to her case, though she said she was treated fairly. She is married and has several children. A prosecutor described her as “black or Hispanic” during jury selection.

B76

F

50s

White

Married, 2 kids

B76 Prosecution

B76 Defense

Has lived in central Florida for 18 years. She manages rental properties with her husband of 30 years. She has two adult children, including one who is an attorney. She is involved with rescuing animals in her free time. During jury selection, she said she had been the victim of a nonviolent crime. “Everyone deserves a fair trial,” she said. The prosecutor wanted this juror struck.

B37

F

50s

White

Married 20 years, 2 kids

B37 Prosecution

B37 Defense

Volunteers rescuing animals. She is married to an attorney and has two adult children. She said she and her husband used to have concealed weapons permits. During the last round of questioning, she said she had an issue with the type of weapons people are allowed to carry. She also thought weapons’ training was inadequate for people seeking permits. “It should become harder,” she said. She has let her permit lapse.

B51

F

60s

White

Unmarried, no kids

B51 Prosecution

B51 Defense

Retired, not married and doesn’t have kids. She has lived in Seminole County for nine years. From Oviedo who has a dog and 20-year-old cat. She has worked in real estate and run a call center where she said she had experience resolving conflicts. When asked if Zimmerman did something wrong by following Martin instead of waiting for police, she said: “Yeah, I guess he did do something wrong.”

E6

F

20s

White

Married, 2 kids

E6 Prosecution

E6 Defense

Warned kids not to give “false impression” about themselves. A young white woman and mother who used to work in financial services. She used this case as an example to her adolescent children, warning them to not go out at night.Husband an engineer. Children are 11 and 13. Husband and son have guns. Victim of Domestic Abuse. Unemployed, volunteers at kids’ school. 2-year Seminole Co. resident, had lived in Orange Co. since 2004. Saw an innocent person go to prison. The prosecutor tried 3 times to get this juror struck.

E40

F

60s

White

Married, 1 son

E40 Prosecution

E40 Defense

Moved to FL from Iowa in Nov. 2012. She heard national-news reports and recalls the shooting was in a gated community and a teenager was killed. Worked as safety officer, husband is a chemical engineer. Son is 28. Was on jury 20 years ago in Pa. drug dealing case. She shared she has been a victim on a nonviolent crime. She describes herself as a football fan.
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240 thoughts on “August 23, 2013 – Post Discussion

  1. a repost from the last thread———————————-

    They still can’t get the basic facts right –

    ” It was not only that a light-skinned Zimmerman killed an unarmed black teenager — but also that police didn’t do anything about it.”

    ” Instead, police let Zimmerman go under Florida’s “stand your ground” law.”

    [Alex Seitz-Wald is Salon’s political reporter.]

    http://www.salon.com/2013/08/22/no_chris_lane_is_not_trayvon_martin/

    • The male on the right reflects all they have been told to believe about this case and nothing more. He says the white boy got out of his truck, armed to the teeth, chased him down and killed him. And then the jury did the same thing the jury did in 1955 and found him not quilty. This tells him things have not changed as much as people like to say they have.

      The woman says she “kind of” encounters racism. What does “kind of” mean? When they “kind of” follow you in a store? She says even in restaurants you may get served last or not served at all, she encountered that yesterday in Washington…I call BS on this one.

      Did the commentator ask them about the out of control violence displayed by their young people? Nope, notta, zip.

      At this point in time, I don’t think anything can change the minds of those who believe this narrative. Tonight is the Emmitt Till and Trayvon Martin event. I’m sure we’ll be seeing more videos similar to this, perpetuating the myth. To acknowledge anything otherwise would mean acknowledging there is a greater problem than their perceived white racism.

  2. FROM hooson’s link shared above:

    If you want to actually understand race relations in this country, you need to understand the difference between these cases. But the right prefers to live behind a veil of intentional ignorance where the only kind of racism that exists today is black people disliking white people.
    ________________

    Give me an effing break on this ignorance, this author CAN’T ACTUALLY understand the difference because GZ was NOT a racist!

    THIS JUST IN FROM RACIST CHRIS BROWN WHEN SENTENCED BY JUDGE:

    The Racist Ass D.A. Is Out To Get Me!

    The ever-deflecting singer went on a twitter rant last night, ragging on authorities for calling him out for submitting bogus community service reports in the Rihanna beating case. The judge ordered Brown last week to do 1,000 hours of additional, legitimate community service.

    Chris TWEETED: “Nigga done 6 months community service wit police and the DA racist ass crying to the judge that I didn’t do it. F**k the SYSTEM!”

    FUN FACT: — the actual L.A. County D.A. IS AN AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMAN!

    http://www.tmz.com/2013/08/23/chris-brown-racist-da-rihanna-beating-community-service-twitter/#ixzz2coESVMqB
    ________________________

    A sad commentary that many young people idolize this POS & probably believe his rant. I am forever amazed WHY society doesn’t boycott these nut jobs, & Chris Brown especially after he beat Rhianna, there doesn’t seem to be a shortage of truly talented people just waiting to take his place.

    • If you want to actually understand race relations in this country, you need to understand the difference between these cases. But the right prefers to live behind a veil of intentional ignorance where the only kind of racism that exists today is black people disliking white people.

      Arghhhhh… my whole life “the conversation” has been about white on black racism, affirmative action, etc. Finally we start talking about the bigger picture, ie, (1) black on white racism and violence, as well as (2) black leaders trying to convince people it’s still 1950, for their own financial benefit, and (3) many blacks being their own biggest barrier to upward mobility — and Eric Holder’s people aren’t happy that we aren’t being cowards. First, this incesssant push to insist people fit into the politicians’ parties – many people who are tired of this wildly disproportionate black violence are in the middle and the left. Second – this is definitely pushback, their narratives are threatened. People are becoming more aware – thanks to the new media – of the bigger picture. They’re pointing out hypocrisy such as black on white violence is unfortunate, white on black violence is racism. And they’re calling out to the racebaiters, hey, if you care about blacks, work on the BIG problem, the black on black, and next the black on white violence. They’re pointing out that the BGI only focuses on the much rarter white on black violence. The BGI is getting nervous….

  3. BUMPING NETTLEPEDIA’S LINK FROM PREVIOUS THREAD!

    George is looking good. Keep up the good work George!

    http://www.tmz.com/2013/08/22/george-zimmerman-shotgun-kel-tec-trayvon-martin-shop-gun/
    ______________________________

    Nettles – GZ does look great, it’s good to see his face relaxed, smiling, & he looks like he is losing weight which no doubt makes him feel better. On another site on this article, there were many pictures of GZ at the facility, can’t remember which one but KUDOS to the plant for taking the time & showing GZ around.

  4. I clicked on the last thread and my BS meters started blaring warning messages.

    When I read an article, on any subject, and in the article it includes “according to our sources” or “according to an unnamed source” if I even finish reading the article, I don’t give the information contained much credibility. It is quite well known that the Zimmerman’s are still in hiding, and they are still getting death threats. I’m certain that not many have access to any of the Zimmerman’s to verify much of anything, let alone to ask them if they said certain things, and to whom. If I think I know anything about the Zimmerman’s, I seriously doubt they are going to enter into any debate on what conversations they had, or didn’t have with SD, especially in a public forum like twitter. It’s equally impossible to contact informants, so to speak, when their names have never been revealed. It’s unfair, and unethical to take one side’s word for it, but deny any capability for the accused side to voice their defense, verification or opinion, if they even chose to. That is what the media did quite successfully with the Zimmerman case. They bought the narrative, false stories, unfounded accusations and ran with it as gospel truth. They doctored tapes, they spliced interviews, they feigned righteous indignation when George referred to God in his Hannity interview, yet Corey praying with the Martin’s right before announcing second degree murder charges against George was so warm and tender and endearing. I know, many others know, and Sundance himself knows that you cannot just say to people- trust me, I am seeking the truth, and I have talked to these unnamed people, and they all have backed up what my premonitions were, O’Mara is a corrupt and bad dude. I already formed my own opinion, I had the answer, and I just looked for verification of my personal conclusions, and by damn I found them.

    It’s especially egregious to accuse anyone of being in denial because they refuse to buy into a just trust me argument. It’s horrendous to name call, ridicule and mock, and even silence the voices of those that have formed their own opinions that happen to differ. It is a bully who requires aligence to your opinions, ideas, ideology, and agenda, or you just don’t know a damn thing, but I’m going to keep beating you on the head with it.

    No, I don’t know who Rick Madigan is but, he is a very good friend of GZ’s who was frustrated with seeing George going along with an attorney I kept telling him was not looking out for his best interest??? I knew better than George but he was comfortably clueless and naive in believing that O’Mara was on his side.

    Yes O’Mara knew everything about the paypal account even before the first bond hearing, and he told George Zimmerman not to include that information on the financial disclosure. I know that because a Zimmerman family member told me that. I am the O’Mara and a member in good standing with the Fla. Bar, and I know that the prosecution has every last little bit of information on George and Shellie’s banking records and paypal account, but hey, I’m the O’Mara and I’m telling you to lie your asses off on that document, and don’t include it.

    The Fla. Bar does not just run around Fla. looking for attorney’s to investigate all on their own. If it is true that O’Mara was investigated by the Fla. Bar, and that info. is most definitely not available to anyone in the public, someone(s) would have had to file a complaint to start the investigation process going. Does anyone doubt that Crump, NatJac, even the prosecutors would file a complaint just so they could throw another monkey wrench into the defense they were trying to stop at every juncture. I sure haven’t seen any punishment for O’Mara publicized which the Fla. Bar does in fact do when they punish a Fla. atty. In fact Uhrig’s name was just listed not long ago on the list of atty’s punished by the Bar, again. That’s his second punishment by the Fla. Bar. Isn’t that who Robert Sr. wanted to represent George? George said no and hired O’Mara. Didn’t George, or family members say back then that he was thrilled to have such a high quality lawyer representing him? Maybe a little animosity going on between Robert Sr. and George over what was George’s choice to make?

    There is absolutely no proof that O’Mara approved of any settlement for the Martin’s with the HOA.

    There is absolutely no proof that there were two or more DD’s.

    There is absolutely no proof at all that there was communication with the Zimmerman family members, or what they in fact said.

    There is no proof of many of the accusation’s against the pinkie ring wearing lawyer, who had the nerve to be wined and dined by another popular lawyer in NY in celebration of a hard fought but won acquittal.

    Nope. Just trust me doesn’t win the day, or the argument.

    • I heard back from Robert last night. He asked that I email him my questions so that he can respond. I told him I’d like to post the response on the blog so everyone can know the same thing. If his response can’t be public, then I asked him to share nothing with me. He emailed back asking for some time to compose an answer.

      It struck me that we (the supporters) are putting the family is a tough spot with this. Shellie still has a perjury charge in front of her. Also, what family agrees on everything? Can there be one response that incorporates all of their viewpoints? Do they agree and disagree with what actually happened and why? I’ll let you know when and if I hear.

      I appreciate Sundance coming to the blog and posting under an identity we all know. It’s dishonest to post under other identities to further a position or make a point. If Rick Madigan is Mark Osterman, he is a guy I wouldn’t trust. To post his views without disclosing what his potential biases are is intellectually dishonest. If the treehouse has information of commenters biases and chose not to share them with the readers than they were being dishonest with their followers. If you can’t be forthright, stay offline.

      One thing that struck me last night was how bad Sundance’s memory is. He thinks he banned 3 people, possibly I was one of them and he can’t remember the 3rd one. His recall of the Revocation hearing was totally wrong. He said BDLR handed the motion to revoke 20 minutes before the start of court and that’s when O’Mara remembered the passport in his briefcase. He went on to say, George’s presence was expected at any minute and O’Mara had the utter shock on his face and had to put a game face on. https://annettekblog.wordpress.com/2013/08/21/august-21-2013/#comment-14807

      Of course, a review of the tape will remind us that BDLR phoned O’Mara at 8:30am that morning (Court was at 1pm) to advise him he was filing the motion. At that time, O’Mara explained over the phone to BDLR about the passport and where it was. O’Mara thought that would resolve the issue. O’Mara provided the court with documentation to prove when he got the passport and when he filled out the paperwork to submit it to court. The Judge dismissed it as a non-issue. George was not expected in the courtroom that day. It’s one thing that really really bothers me about Lester hearing that motion that day. George had waived his right to be there but when he did that, he didn’t know a motion to revoke would be heard by the court! Judge Lester heard this most important motion from one side of the courtroom. The defendant wasn’t in court to defend himself! How could Sundance forget that?

      I can see the Zimmerman family having concerns that what they are reading at the treehouse isn’t right. They wondered, like we all did, at one point in time, is O’Mara really looking to help George or is he part of the system that’s railroading him. Again, Sundance was successful in dividing the Zimmerman supporters and I’ve no doubt he negatively affected the donations account.

      Having said that, he isn’t the only reason the donation account got limited donations. I wondered at one time if the donations weren’t more of a liability than a help to poor George. It was the very fact the donations were available to him that got him put in solitary confinement for a month!

      Sundance also misleads that because the indigent filing didn’t occur on April 20th that the opportunity to apply for it was lost. That’s not accurate. I recall in O’Mara’s August 13th presser he said if donations don’t pick up they would file to get help from the state. So it always was an option for George. Some supporters thought he should take it. I never thought he should. I cringed to think of a hearing to declare him indigent in light of the severe credibility issues on disclosing finances already witnessed. Also, it gave the state more power to control how his defense got handled and that couldn’t have been a good thing. I’m very thankful, and I’m sure the family is too, that enough people supported the defense (in spite of Sundance trying to cast doubt on the defense) to allow them to mount the defense the way they chose.

      We also got insight into what was going on behind the scenes at the treehouse and why they were so suspicious of commenters there. It’s sad that a place touting truth, truth, truth, was misleading its readers, left, right and center. We learned the May 5th post about Sundance’s sources was totally inaccurate and that he talked to George’s brother-in-law “bazillion of times”.

      Regardless, the collective effort of all who posted there was a gain in the Zimmerman camp. We can argue all we like on what shoulda, coulda, woulda been done but in the end, we prevailed and an innocent man was found not guilty. Thank you defense team and all contributors.

      • My two cents, I always suspected that SD was in contact with someone in the vicinity of the Family. But the information he was getting was incomplete and second-hand but enough for SD to make his conclusions as he has a habit of doing with minimal information. To me it is telling that he came to the site to defend himself, from what? I don’t know what he felt was so pressing for him to do so, he certainly has not proven the charges he claims that MOM did. It seem like a childish venture on his part. If he is not RM then what real difference does it make if someone here believes that that is SD. Where is RM anyway? Not that I really care, but that big convo yesterday would have been the perfect occasion to settle it, wouldn’t it?

        Anyway there are distractions that add little to the issue of GZ and his soon to be on trial wife Shellie.

      • Sundance’s contribution clarified some matters, and, at the same time raised further questions. It provided an insight as to what was going on behind the scenes at CTH and helps explain some of the paranoiac responses that would appear there from time to time.

        Given the fact that they knew, and/or believed they knew, a lot more than they let on, I don’t quite understand why a goodly amount of vitriol was dispensed upon individuals (who did not have the benefit of all this background stuff) and asked reasonable questions or offered alternate reasonable interpretations of ongoing developments.

        • It is my opinion that if SD didn’t have the handful of rabid supporters, who live for every one of his posts, who get on their knees and thank him claiming he was the only one who was really looking for the truth, and bought the trust me meme, I don’t think he would still be going on and on about how wonderful he is. I saw the change happening in SD over a period of time. As the site was growing, and more and more people were joining in there, and were patting him on the back, and giving him all kinds of atta boys, his opinions of himself were growing. As he was convincing more and more people with his Truth Has No Agenda, Wolverines, and including God’s messages in words and song, he had need to punish those that stepped out of his Pied Piper lineup. You can’t be a leader if some begin to question your narratives and/or motives.

      • That was my thought as well Nettles. Not every family member is on the same page about every issue. Everyone of the family members were under a ton of stress since the shooting, many getting death threats that I believe continue to this day. Often enough those types of situations can work to split a family apart. For the most part, the perception in public did in fact appear to be one of unity, and standing tall with their support for George. Shellie is one hell of a strong lady, and George should thank his lucky starts that he has her. She can know with certainty that George will always keep her safe.

        I’m leaning on believing that Rick M is Mark Osterman. He seemed to have a great deal of influence on George before the shooting. He talked about some family dysfunctions in his book, which upset me more than anything else. I believe it was likely him that told George to cooperate with the police without calling an attorney. Yeah, when he got cut off from communicating with George, he was likely very pizzed. He no longer had any influence on George. Yup, that would be enough to make someone hate O’Mara.

        Speaking of safety. I see George is making use of the Buckeye Firearms Foundation $12,000 donation for guns, ammo, and security systems when he went shopping for a new Kel-Tec. A Kel-Tec is a security system in many households. Good on you George. Let the mobs know they can’t rule you or your life.

        • It’s speculation, but it still seems to me that Rick Madigan and Sundance are two different individuals.

          I suspect that the Osterman book did not make O’Mara a happy camper. To the contrary, for a lawyer who wants to control the news flow from his side, O’Mara was likely pretty steamed, and Osterman likely heard his share of blowback.

          Who knows? I think Sundance knows.

          • One thing is clear. Sundance was playing games or spinning plates as he put it.

            He feels justified in misrepresenting the truth to those who read and participated there.

            I’m getting angrier as the day goes along.

            The truth has no agenda. Really?

          • Think about it now as you read Rick’s comments about Mr. O’Mara and leaves out the part, oh the lawyer and I disagreed about me releasing my book prior to the trial.

            How many people did Rick influence into thinking O’Mara was out to get George without revealing why he had a bee in his bonnet?

            Of course, it’s all speculation. Until Rick comes back here and fesses up, even then will we know?

            There is for certainty that Rick had the assistance of admins at the treehouse. We can’t remove posts there.

            • What posts were removed?

              And yes, actually commentators can remove/modify comments. People e-mail the CTH all the time asking for comments to be deleted, or modified because of a host of reasons. Sometimes they regret what they said, sometimes they post and become concerned their privacy/personage might be compromised, sometimes they have messed up a copy/paste…. lots of reasons. It’s quite frequent.

        • minpin – remember when Sandra O. said during the trial they were “keeping the profits from their book to GIVE to GZ AFTER his trial?

          I wonder if they ever really gave GZ/SZ the money they claimed was in an account?

          • Art. Why would they keep the profits from the book until after the trial, when he so desperately needed the money for his living and defense costs? If they gave any profits to George before the trial they knew it may be used by O’Mara for the defense costs. Yes, they hate O’Mara. I hope George and Shellie have found better and more reliable friends.

            • And that is assuming there were any profits. I don’t mean that in a snarky way. It is just that these semi-self published venues rarely make profits for the majority of their clients. They do try to take advantage of publicity situations to put book product out there.

                • Reviews on the book were poor. I didn’t read it myself but I recall Robles tweeting out some easily disproven statements from his book.

                  For a guy in law enforcement, he gave bad advice to George if he didn’t insist he get an attorney and secondly, his ability to gather facts and communicate them out was terrible if the book is an indication of his skills.

      • @Nettles…..”Sundance also misleads that because the indigent filing didn’t occur on April 20th that the opportunity to apply for it was lost”….

        Actually, that’s incorrect. Again, those are your words NOT MINE (you have a habit of that – Hmmmm?? I digress)

        The ability to file indecency was lost because O’Mara screwed up (well, actually lied) with the PayPal account reporting and financial disclosures. Him creating the issue which blew up into a HUGE media disparagement of George is what led to the unintended consequence of GZ losing the capacity.

        Technically, filing indigence was never lost. But, optically it would have looked horrible to have this ‘they are hiding assets’ media image as the backdrop for claiming poverty….. the media would have pummeled GZ exponentially.

        Having corrected that misrepresentation. You avoid the bigger issue.

        In the convo where MoM told them not to declare the PayPal funds. Mark O’Mara told GZ, SZ and RZjr, the reasoning. He was going to use the State indigency rules to underwrite his representation. He told the family (GZ, RZ, all of them in a hotel room if memory serves) that average rates for experts to testify were around $600.00 per hour. He could get the state to reimburse $400.00 per hour, if he declared indigent – hence the “hide or do not declare the money directive”. This was the basis for his reason.

        In essence O’Mara was planning to have the State of Florida subsidize his defense.

        However, in the largest ironic twist to that issue, O’Mara actually shot himself in the foot – and George in both feet. When the PayPal fiasco broke out, the subsequent outcome was that O’Mara could never get the subsidy… (his foot shot). However, because of the lie that created the issue, he ended up shooting GZ’s reputation to smithereens (both feet).

        He tried to make up for it in the 2nd bond hearing….. with a multi hour presentation mega fail.

        What stood as the worst possible aspect – was the BAR sanction leverage now held by the State. O’Mara created his own ethical issues.

        For verification purposes: You are tight with Shaun – you can ask him about the BAR investigation over the Legally and Ethically surrogated Law Firm account that was not used. The best question to find out how corrupt O’Mara is would be to ask: Why did O’Mara not use it? and What was his official response to the BAR?

        (useful temp slush funds to offset costs et al on the building next door, maybe?….. dunno)

        • Sundance, I do believe Nettles was speaking “technically”. First off I think when coming here you have to remember your premise of MOM and the people who post here. There are mostly legal eagles here. Hence, why much of what you say about MOM makes little sense in the legal form/scheme of things. You appear to have much of a back drop from many people you have considered close to the case. As what began with you and I, was the question whether or not you had confirmed your sources? Especially since you could not do face to face.
          I know now you are claiming you had first hand knowledge from first hand people, but in another breath you do say you spun plates. And when I go back and look when you reported these things,it does appear you had sources, but they are nowhere as closely associated as you are saying now, and much can not be confirmed on our end.
          I do not doubt you reported MOM to the Bar concerning the paypal. You stating you were so close to the sources…. I ask a few questions.
          1. Did MOM tell them to move the money?
          2. Since you are so close to Ken…. What account was “Peter Pan”?

          • “I do not doubt you reported MOM to the Bar concerning the paypal.”

            If true, that’s even lower and more vindictive than anything the Scheme Team and the Prosecutors did. Only a real lowlife, filled with rage and hatred would stoop that low. That is an agenda, and it has nothing to do with truth.

            • They moved that money around a few different accounts, from what I can tell from the jailhouse tapes it was at someone elses insistance, not MOMs to keep the exact amount quiet. They also were aware how not to tip institution off by staying under 10 gs. I do believe GZ said something about the account to MOM but he never told him the amount. RM keeps bringing up $37,000 so this is where I will stick also. However, the transfers show much more came into GZs and went to SZs. So someone was transfering the money out of the pay pal into GZs account, then into two other accounts ( Shellie and Suzies) AFTER they told MOM about $37,000. Why? That is my question. We know AFTER bail and AFTER it was transfered back into GZs account the full amount was disclosed, and what was left was signed over from GZs account to the new trust fund. It makes no sense that if MOM knew about the 37,000 he would tell them to move it around like that. It could have stayed in the pay pal and then been tranfered into the trust or used for bail.

              Also it makes no sense MOM would not tell the court about the money. Because it obviously was tracked through bank statements. If MOM knew about the money I highly suspect it would have never been moved. So SD makes no sense in anything. Including MOMs reasoning for telling them not to file the pay pal account. First of all if it only had $37,000 in it and bail was set @ $150,000 they would need $15,000 to post bond. He very well could have filed indigent.

          • Well, mini, you know unless action is taken we do not know. So to know the details or that there is an investigation either he 1.filed it 2. knows who did. Or 3. he could just be full of shit.

          • @DannyWarrior, That comment about : “I do not doubt you reported MOM to the Bar concerning the paypal.” Is just plain silly. However, it does show your cognitive dissonance. “You have no doubt”? Well you’ve got it all figured out have ya?

            SMH

            That’s ridiculous. And you all claim to have “all legally minded” people commenting here? Seriously?

            I doubt the Florida BAR would not open an investigation based on some unknown person sending information to them without a vested interest in something…

            NO, from what I could determine, the investigation was initiated because the fund was public knowledge and the BAR ethics folks have a vested interest in overseeing the finances of attorney’s under their watch.

            The mandated by law, client surrogated accounts, under the watch of the BAR, draw interest income revenue to the BAR itself…. so they not only watch because of the opportunity for attorney’s to manipulate their clients accounts, but also because the BAR itself gets administrative income from it.

            I found out sometime later as I was researching to find out who was the O’Mara friend, accountant and former IRS employee, that he put in charge of the finances.

            Bottom line – as I said in earlier reply – Shawn Vincent can clear all of that up for you via Nettles. Nettles knows how to contact Shawn and she can ask him directly.

            • Lets leave psychology out of this. There are no Florida Bar rules that regulate legal defense funds. Also the defense team received registration certification from the Florida Division of Consumer Services. A certified public accountant and former Internal Revenue Service agent runs the defense fund and makes all finacial decisions.

              • ….”There are no Florida Bar rules that regulate legal defense funds”….

                Holy shit. You actually believe that? WOW…. just, well,…… WOW.

                THAT explains everything. Say_No_More. Wow.

                Chapter 7 – The Florida BAR Association, Florida Board of Governers establishes: the board of governors hereby establishes a separate fund designated “Clients’ Security Fund of…..

                http://www.floridabar.org/TFB/TFBResources.nsf/Attachments/1C611D0078EED78485256B29004BD700/$FILE/RRTFB-CH7.pdf?OpenElement

                • There are no rules that REGULATE the defense funds. What you gave here is if ca clients funds are misappropriated through a fraud by an attorney. And this means ANY funds…. meaning as in money/ funds. The Clients’ Security Fund was created by The Florida Bar to help compensate persons who have suffered a loss of money or property due to misappropriation or embezzlement by an attorney. Only a CLIENT can file a claim.

                • Furthermore, The Clients’ Security Fund will not consider a claim against a member who is in good standing and eligible to practice law. The fund comes from Florida attys. who pay annual bar fees. The Fund is discretionary, meaning it does not have to pay a claim.

    • I certainly cannot comment on what Omara does/doesn’t do as that is far beyond my pay grade. What I can say, though, is that I did see an instagram of a girl in Rache’s area, Haitian, who was 16 at the time, graduated HS this year and has ‘deedee’ as her username (actually it is an instagram IIRC) and she knew Trayvon.

      So if there wasn’t an original girl then Crump knew of such a name from research and used it for a narrative. I will believe that til I die. Not to mention the ‘she’ comment (see the last thread, near the bottom – Nettles helped find that video and the time in which rachel said ‘she’ instead of herself when talking about that night/being on the phone) and the voice in the crump interview sounds younger/different. To me that is why Rachel said she was doing that interview in a closet (to explain a different sound – which to me was disproven as false because the beep of the smoke detector – or whatever it was, kept changing, which to me meant she was likely moving around – which means she wasn’t doing this in a closet).

      We’ll never know but, personally, I wouldn’t put it past Crump. Remember, he sued for 911 tapes, wanted the police investigation/as much info as he could and then created a narrative. He also couldn’t get the time of the shooting right “He left for the store during halftime” – that game started when Trayvon was dead. He’s a crook, a dirtbag – a con artist carney barker. I’d not only not be surprised if there were 2 deedees, I wouldn’t be surprised if HE is putting on a wig and pretending to be rachel 😉

  5. Lawyer: George Zimmerman should not be visiting gun factories

    The attorney who helped murder defendant George Zimmerman win a controversial acquittal last month was frustrated to learn his client toured a gun factory on Thursday.

    According to TMZ, the former neighborhood crime watchman visited Kel-Tec firearms, the company that manufactured the semi-automatic handgun Zimmerman used in the fatal confrontation with Trayvon Martin.

    “We certainly would not have advised him to go to the factory that made the gun that he used to shoot Trayvon Martin through the heart,” Shawn Vincent, a spokesman for attorney Mark O’Mara, told Yahoo News. “That was not part of our public relations plan.”

    Zimmerman’s brother, Robert, confirmed the factory tour to CNN.

    “From that perspective, we are George’s legal representation, but I don’t think he takes our advice on how he lives his life or what factories he decides to tour,” Vincent told Yahoo News. “We represented him in court. We got the verdict that we believe is just, and the rest of George’s life is up to George.”

    But Vincent acknowledged that the timing of the factory tour was not well planned, especially since Zimmerman has become a lightning rod in the debate on gun and self defense rights.

    “If you’re a public figure and you represent people’s opinion on those issues, then what you do in context is important for sure,” Vincent said.

    Whole story here… http://news.yahoo.com/lawyer-george-zimmerman-should-not-be-visiting-gun-factories-174609071.html

      • I really enjoyed reading that article Nettles. O’Mara knows that there will never be a world without guns. It’s unrealistic. With all of the states and communities that are now banning guns, or making gun ownership much more difficult are the very same areas where the black market in guns is alive and thriving. I’ve read they also have the highest numbers of gun crimes. With the massive amount of shootings and killings in Chicago, the town with the strictest gun laws, the people are getting those guns from somewhere, and I guarantee it isn’t from gun shops. I just read an article today where a Christian school has a sign posted out front saying that their staff are armed. I’ll make a huge bet that that school will not suffer a mass shooting of students. Even if there was just one armed officer in all the schools, I’d bet the cowards wouldn’t be seeking to shoot our most vulnerable.

        O’Mara’s view on guns likely was clarified and solidified when he took on the GZ case. GZ would have been dead, or severly brain damaged if he didn’t have a gun. Unfortunately there will always be those like the Lane shooters. Their guns were illegal. They weren’t old enough to own any guns.

          • “We’d prefer the criminals not to have guns.” LOL

            Just one American city, with the strictest gun laws in the nation, Chicago, has 37 killings in just a few weekends. The areas with Concealed Carry have far fewer. In some ways I wouldn’t mind having open carry. If that would not be a message of don’t even think about it, I don’t know what would.

            • There is a State, can’t remember which one, is now wanting to allow “open carry,” I assume they would have to amend their law in place now to do so. Probably Texas, I don’t have a problem w/it personally.

        • Nettles, you got it!! The boys who killed Australian (Melbourne born) Chris Lane were in possession of illegal firearms. They had a lot in common with Traydemark Martin.

          I am on a mission… and yes I am blaming $ybrina Fulton, Crump and all the Trayvonites for their role in the murder of Chris Lane, as well as several other white men who have been bashed to death in recent weeks.

          • Aussie – I second that emotion. One of the teens had been conducting armed robberies w/his pregnant girlfriend using the same gun for the past couple of months.

              • Agree 100%. Illegal guns in the hands of thugs raised as animals = cancerous problem for USA. No matter how they spin it, legally owned and carried weapons are not the cause of the horrible crimes being committed. Humans with no conscience and no morals are the problem.

                • It is a problem in Australia.

                  Two gangs – Hells Angels and Comancheros in Sydney. There are turf wars. People are being killed. There are lots of drive-by shootings. The guns used in these happenings are illegally possessed.

                  This is what Australia has in common with the USA. It is the illegal possession of firearms by the criminal class that is the real issue.

  6. I agree with Omara. He needs to lay low and not be taking smiling photos at gun factories. At least give it some time. Show some sort of respect. And nobody hates the state/crump more than me and was rooting for him to walk more than me but that photo did bug me. Take a break, sue the slugs, create some good karma and when things die down do your thing. Sometimes even when you have the right to do something you should put a bit more thought into it or wait just a bit. Maybe I am wrong, who knows.

    • I agree with you, not the best thing to do. The news is all over it and not in a good way. LSM spending time on this than the vicious murders of Chris Lane and Delbert Belton.

      • Ditto, nothing useful resulted, but I bet it was just a kind gesture, the guy asked for a photo and George obliged without thinking it through that the guy might release the photo to the internet.

        • cassandra – I agree w/your thoughts. Did GZ know this would be released to MEDIA/internet or was he being courteous to someone that ask for a picture? imo, visiting a gun factory would have been a non event had not for the picture. GZ continues to get death threats, I see nothing wrong w/GZ visiting the factory.

          GZ will be hated probably for the rest of his life, NO amount of public relations is ever going to change that or no amount of “control” MOM would like to put on GZ will change that either, jmho. I realize the Defense Team wants all good things for GZ, but they can’t control his life or the decisions he makes in his life.

          No matter what GZ/SZ do the rest of their lives, they will be hated by the uninformed that think the NOT GUILTY verdict meant nothing, that even if GZ isn’t in jail, he should be DENIED the rights of every American citizen. That segment of society is going to make sure they impose the most hate & anger they possibly can to make GZ’s life harder than it is.

          The MEDIA should focus on the brutal murder of Chris Lane & the WW2 Army vet, 89, BEATEN to death by 2 black thugs, report on the trial of the 2 yr. old little boy shot between the eyes by 2 black thugs because his mother had no money to give them, they shot the child’s mother too! WHERE’S THE OUTRAGE? Priorities, imo, are misguided by MEDIA when there are critical issues that need to be reported & if possible, provide some of the reasons young men feel the need to murder by doing their own investigative work.

          • I agree. George and Shellie have to do what makes them happy. Everyone else will have opinions about it but it only matters what they think about it.

            It’s time for them to live for them, not what everyone else wants.

            • While I agree for the most part, I will say this…

              Whatever decisions they make in the immediate future, they need to be mindful that O’Mara and West and their families have been targeted with death threats as well.

              Touring gun factories is just stirring a pot that, for the safety of all concerned, is likely best left unstirred right now.

              • nivico – the fact is: Did GZ know he was stirring the pot & DID GZ know the picture would make National News? imo, he did not OR GZ would do an interview for profit. Did Don West think by taking an innocent picture w/his daughters that it would become a MEDIA sensation cause EMBARASSMENT to the defense team as it surely did? Did Don West have any idea that his daughter would post the ice cream photo on social media, imo, he did not.

                MANY have been targeted w/death threats in this case, MOM/West knew the hate & unstable going in & agreeing to represent GZ, they know the hate will remain, they KNEW from the reaction to the NOT Guilty verdict had angered many unstable people, imo, that is the BIGGEST problem MOM/West face for death threats, NOT the photo of GZ in the gun factory.

                • I also believe “George is just being George” to quote O’Mara. George never could understand why when he told the truth people didn’t believe him, why he was ridiculed and branded as a murderer. He has a clear conscience, and he wants to protect himself and Shellie the best he can. I doubt it ever crossed his mind that taking a tour of the gun factory and smiling while shaking someone’s hand would be jumped on by press, Piers Morgan etc. Same scenario when he stopped to help folks in the overturned car. He’s just doing what he thinks is right…and it sure doesn’t hurt to let the haters know he’s security conscious 🙂

          • I agree. Those people who believe the narrative and couldn’t bother to read the motions, or watch the hearings or the trial are always going to hate him. Better they know that he is armed.

            I can see how the timing may be off – but it’s not like anyone with a big voice is out there fighting the narrative wherever it presents itself. I mean, WE try, but we’re not big enough. So if the narrative isn’t going to be changed, he’s got to look out after himself.. I guess I’m saying, HE certainly can’t change the narrative, and if no one else is going to, then all he should focus on is where to hide, be safe, and maybe find some new type of occupation. He’s just going to have to accept that the narrative will be allowed to stand – if no one is working to change it, why should he worry how his actions may inflame the narrative….?

            • I wonder what is going on with the Beasley NBC lawsuit. Beasley said shortly after the not guilty verdict that he was going to move on his lawsuit quickly. I wonder if the stay was lifted? I got the impression that NBC was only one from a long list of planned lawsuits. I wonder if NBC settled.

              There was a gun shop owner in Fla. that offered to give GZ a free gun when the DOJ confiscated the evidence including the gun. That shop owner immediately started getting death threats. I have no problem with GZ touring a gun manufacturer. I give a lot of credit to those willing to treat him as a decent human being rather than the vigilante the media wants him to be viewed as.

              It doesn’t matter what GZ does, the mob, and I include the Media in that mob, will turn it into something negative about GZ. What if GZ did something as innocent as going to pick up his neighbors kids at school. If anyone spotted him the school would be on lock down, and GZ would be described as a possible shooter who came to the school to shoot innocent unarmed young black males in the back of the head, because he’s a racist.

              The mob doesn’t get to dictate George’s life, where he goes and what he does, and I’m glad he is not allowing them to do so. When we cower in the face of the mob, and alter our lives because of their threats, it only gives them that much more power over every one of us. If anyone is in need of a gun it is GZ.

              • minpin – during the wrongful death Civil Suit of my sister, a lot of depositions took place & a lot of time wasted by the physician’s attorney’s TRYING to negotiate a settlement in which we turned down.

                It may be possible that both are happening in this case, just speculating, BUT, would we know about depos due to the Sunshine Laws? The 3 or 4 people that got FIRED over the editing were in FLa., can’t remember which city, but I wonder if it would reported there?

                I am as anxious as you are to hear anything, hopefully soon.

          • I learned from one article that the particular shotgun is so popular and in high demand that people go to the factory to secure the weapon. Not sure of the logistics, just that the factory stated many people come directly for that particular weapon.

          • I should add I totally agree on the hate from the uninformed. Tonight the BBC covered Sybrina involvement in the 50th anniversary of the March, it was surreal, the report stated TM was killed while walking home doing nothing, followed with Sybrina lies which were nauseating.

      • I recall I posted that I hoped the next time GZ was spotted he was shopping for guns. It would serve notice to the idiots making threats.

        You can’t think of everything from everyone else’s perspective. Feedback does help.

        The picture does look awful juxtaposed to the family’s grief at losing their son to a Kel-Tec weapon.

        I don’t agree with Shawn Vincent’s inflammatory quote about shooting Trayvon through the heart. It sounded like he was channeling Crump for pete’s sake. AJ and I discussed that yesterday on facebook. It doesn’t sound like Shawn and we wondered if the reporter wasn’t on auto-pilot from hearing Crump say it so often.

        Or was Shawn giving what he thought would be the media spin? Who knows. I didn’t like it.

        Mr. O’Mara’s blog about owning guns was bang on. It can make a person feel safer who is legitimately threatened.

        I personally have never seen a gun in my life and I hope I die never seeing a gun.

  7. ZIMMERMAN VERDICT PART 15: TALK AT THE SCENE, TALK ON THE STAND?

    Why didn’t Zimmerman take the stand? When I talked to Mark O’Mara a year before the trial, I got the impression he was expecting Zimmerman to testify; that Zimmerman wanted to testify; and that O’Mara thought his client would handle it well. After the trial was over, O’Mara confirmed that Zimmerman wanted to take the stand.

    I personally think he would have done well. He certainly did when he was talking to the cops. If he’s as articulate as his brother Robert, he would have done fine. Shortly after the acquittal, Robert Zimmerman went into the lion’s den in an interview by hostile Piers Morgan on CNN, and the young man absolutely handed Morgan’s pompous, prejudiced ass back to him on a silver platter.

    More… http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2013/08/22/zimmerman-verdict-part-15-talk-at-the-scene-talk-on-the-stand/

  8. And booger eating tinfoil hat wearing imbecile sundance cracka fails yet again in his never ending quest to demonize Mark Omara. While it is George’s legal right to tour any factory he wants and purchase any legal weapon he wants, Omara is absolutelly right that while Eric Holder is still making threats and catering to the race hustlers, George shouldnt give the race pimps more ammo.

    • No robbery, the shooter exited the car, shot the young man and never got close enough to demand money, got back into the car and took off without any of the victim’s belongings. The “official” robbery designation helps explain away what appears to be yet another thrill kill of whitey.

  9. @Sundance….sit quiet and listen, really listen.

    With your visit here, you have given some insight into what was going on behind the scenes at the treehouse and the threats that you and your family came under. It gives me more of an understanding of what you were going through and perhaps why you think there were two camps of GZ supporters.

    Make no mistake about it, you created the two camps in your head.

    I spent some time yesterday re-reading your comments here. You really did (do) think I have some influence with the defense. You think that Mr. O’Mara was feeding me lines to put out into the social media pages and as a result, I became a threat to the Zimmerman family.

    Let that sink in.

    Can you see where you draw the criticism that you are a conspiracy theory nut? Mark O’Mara and team wasn’t communicating with GZ’s family and friends but he was telling this stranger from another country all of his strategy and she in turn was trying to manipulate people into giving him money.

    What you think you know about my “relationship” with the defense team and specifically Mark O’Mara is flat out wrong. As far as a I know I’ve never talked to the man. I would email the defense links to things I though might help George. I would get responses back saying thank you and they weren’t signed. On one or two emails it was signed Shawn and all the others no signature. I assumed the support staff monitored that email, it was the one I believe the media used initially too. I would ask questions sometimes and usually got short responses.

    I’m going to work on a thread about the pay pal fiasco and everyone can work through what we know and what we don’t know.

    I’d appreciate you keeping two facts straight on the pay pal stuff. In reading your comments, you tell us RZJ told you that he and Mark had a face to face about the account’s existence. That’s the one fact, no one disputes, including Mr. O’Mara, that he knew about this account. As I tried to point out to you, it’s on tape on April 20th at the end, when O’Mara tells the Judge there is this account out there and I truly don’t know the balance. That is pretty much what Shellie said and I contend that neither of them was lying. What you are saying is the O’Mara did know the balance and I’m going to do a thread showing you I think that’s incorrect. Not even the family can convince me based on those jail house calls that George knew the balance as he sat there in court on April 20th and there is proof that George’s father did not know the support his son was getting at that time.

    • Sorry I went off track in the last paragraph. The two facts needed to be determined are:

      1) Did O’Mara know the donation account existed?

      2) Did O’Mara know the balance of the account and the strength of the support on April 20th?

      The first one is not in contention. So please ensure as you read Sundance’s comments about the conversations with Robert Jr. , he confirms that O’Mara knew the account existed. ~ That’s never been in dispute. The whole world knew the account existed on April 20th, including the Judge and the Prosecutor.

      What we have to weed out was evidence that Mark O’Mara knew of the strong support George was receiving.

      • My point above is in response to what SD is saying and what it makes it appear like by claiming MOM knew the amount and directed his client to dupe the court so MOM could get more money. He is conflating two different issues to give the narrative HE wants everyone to believe. But if that IS TRUE, my above response would be what most would think. This was pretty much all cleared up during the testimony of Adam Magill a forensic finacial expert who testified during the send bond hearing.

      • If SD wants to throw MOM under the bus about the private GZ account he is throwing GZ under the bus and especially SZ. If he does not say GZ was not open about the account then it looks like GZ lied. If he says MOM knew and told GZ not to say anything they ALL lied. Coreshift told SD this on the last thread. But SD has to stick to HIS narrative that MOM is money hungry and always had control of the account and if it were not for MOM being a greedy Prog. GZ would not had bail revoked and SZ would jot have ben charged with perjury! It is as you say Nettles and I do think it does need to be settled.

        • I would expect if the family does feel the way Sundance is portraying it, we will see this all play out in Shellie’s trial.

          You can be sure BDLR is going to use it against O’Mara when O’Mara goes after him for sanctions. But didn’t I read a long time ago that Sundance fancies himself as taking that threat away from BDLR by exposing O’Mara first. You just can’t make this stuff up.

          I think Sundance allowed himself to be led down a path by those close to George who got hurt feelings about not being in the know. Judging by their correspondence and sharing confidential stuff, it looks to me like O’Mara made a very good call to keep information tightly controlled.

          Truth be told, Sundance still to this day doesn’t get the biases and relationships with the people he was communicating with.

          You’ll note Sundance said that O’Mara got better with the family just before trial. Coincidence he got that feedback when the Ostermans were included as witnesses for the defense?

      • @Nettles.

        First. (your question paraphrased) Did O’Mara know of the *current amount* of the PayPal account when he told them not to include it? AND Did he know how quickly (strong) funds were coming in?

        I doubt he knew the exact amount in the account. He did appear to have a general idea, he did know it was significant, and he did, according to Robert Jr., know that the strength of continued inbound contributions were considerably strong. So in a general sense, yes, he knew a lot of money was flowing into the PayPal account.

        However, and somewhat regardless, the issues are TWO FOLD.

        #1. Regardless of amount in the account, or his knowledge of the actual amount, he specifically told them not to include it in their financial statements for all the reasons previously outlined. WHEN he gave reason WHY not to include the amount in the disclosure, he specifically said he was going to use the state to subsidize the defense. The “expert witness testimony” costs was the example he used. Vis-a-vi the $600/hr cost would be only $200/hr after the $400/hr subsidy.

        #2. You are forgetting his (O’Mara’s) public statements where he said GZ “lied” and GZ “damaged his credibility” by hiding the disclosure. GZ and SZ never HID the disclosure – O’Mara did. Can you not see how exceptionally wrong that was for him to do? He told them not to disclose it, then he goes on TV and says they damaged their credibility by not disclosing it. How can you reasonably justify that?

        • If I recall correctly, the financial affidavit that was attached to the motion for bond was completed on April 12th.

          So not even the Zimmermans could have predicted what was about to come pouring in. I do believe April 12th was the highest day of donations $72K. So in making their decisions what amount of money do you think they were considering?

          Yes, I can see O’Mara telling them not to include donation money. He like everyone else must of thought it wouldn’t add up to a whole lot. The Judge knew of the account, the Prosecutor knew of the account, O’Mara knew of the account and none of them made any effort to find out the balance on April 20th. Why? Because they thought like the rest of us did that day. No one would donate to this guy. His reputation had been thoroughly soiled.

          In spite of what GZ thought $37K is nothing when you have a half a million dollars in court fees coming up.

          I’ll put together a post in the next day or two and everyone can talk about it. We can’t judge them on what we knew after the fact. They were making decisions in real time. Not knowing what the future held. It sounds to me that the advise you are talking about was given on April 12th. A whole lot happened with that fund between the 12th and the 20th.

          There is evidence on the calls that a conscious decision to keep O’Mara in the dark about the “volume” of donations was made. Call #30, April 16th. There is evidence that GZ’s own father and members of his family didn’t know the strength of donation until after George got out of jail. I’ll dig it all up and we can dissect it.

          No more games. Post under the same identity and be honest.

          • If you were a lawyer, preparing the financial affidavit for your client and he said to you, my friends might make money available to me. They might donate to help me, should I include that in my affidavit? What would you advise your client? Does other people’s money belong in your client’s financial affidavit?

            • No, of course not. I’d immediately tell them to shut up, hide the money, claim poverty, and that way we can falsify documentation to the court to get the State to subsidize your defense… and not to worry, because if we are ever found out, NO-ONE will believe I told you this, and it’ll only look bad on you….. /sarc

              I can’t believe you even asked that question.

              999 out of 1000 lawyers would hand you the preliminary work page, say: list all your assets, incomes, accounts, and liabilities; and if you have questions about where to list anything ask me or ((point to clerk))….

              Then again: 999 out of 1000 lawyers would also tell you under no circumstance would they take ownership or control of the clients accounts. No decent attorney would allow the issues which come with financial dependence to enter into what should be a legal representative/advocacy role in a criminal case. None…. as in NONE with any ethics. Nada – Zippo – Zylch.

              For confirmation, or validation, or citation, just ask the ones (lawyers) you know personally.

              • “No, of course not. I’d immediately tell them to shut up, hide the money, claim poverty, and that way we can falsify documentation to the court to get the State to subsidize your defense… and not to worry, because if we are ever found out, NO-ONE will believe I told you this, and it’ll only look bad on you….. /sarc”

                Do you even think before you put together a freaking conspiracy? You do understand that I understand that is EXACTLY what you are claiming happened. IF that is the case then you also understand that you are saying GZ & SG helped MOM commit fraud. Clients CAN NOT help an attorney commit such acts! So you are saying that GZ & SZ are guilty of fraud? And SZ is guilty of perjury?

                “Then again: 999 out of 1000 lawyers would also tell you under no circumstance would they take ownership or control of the clients accounts. No decent attorney would allow the issues which come with financial dependence to enter into what should be a legal representative/advocacy role in a criminal case. None…. as in NONE with any ethics. Nada – Zippo – Zylch. ”

                Look, it was GZ and his family who asked supporters to donate. It was GZ who used MOM as his “sponsor” and “advocate” of sorts in order to get the donations. The ONLY people who made GZ and family financially dependent on ANYONE was the SCHEME TEAM! It would have been unethical to let GZ sit in jail for how the Prosecution who wrongly accused GZ and SZ of planning nefarious things with the donations. Would have rather GZ sit in jail awaiting trial because he had control of the funds? What was more important? GZ out of jail or control of money?

            • No it would not be included because it does not presently exist. But you are right Nettles about all the reasons this happened. GZ was overwhelmed and unfortunately was not forthcoming with either MOM or the court. SD is kind of whack about the type of evidence he deals with–hearsay, guesses and Spidy sense. He is really off the deep end at this point. I guess the GZ case was all he had, and no one but sycophants goes there anymore. SMH, just so sad to see him implode like that.

          • I am posting under the same identity. [(the rest is your issue(s).. see I told you you had no capacity to see beyond your own all ready intrenched beliefs – even when they are ridiculously wrong)]

            To the central issue. Again, for the eleventyth time you skip the fire and focus your attention only on the smoke. (ie. cognitive disassociation/splitting)

            The issue at the heart of the matter is what O’Mara claimed to the media about his client.

            He said his client lied – George Did Not Lie.
            He said his client ruined his credibility – George Did Not Lie.
            He said time would tell if his client could recover his credibility – George Did Not Lie.

            That’s the issue you avoid.

            If you had an attorney who told you not to disclose something, and then went on TV repeatedly, and disparaged you for not disclosing that something, providing massive fuel to the opposition narrative, would you be OK with that?

            That’s the fire.

            The rest (BAR investigation et al) is merely smoke.

            And oddly you completely avoid looking at the consequences to that decision O’Mara made. It’s as if you have to, you just have to, find somebody else at fault. Even to the extent of blaming me, calling me a liar, it’s just got to be someone else, to blame, some other reason, some other person, some other situation, some other….. some other….. any…..

            Why is that?

            • Sundance provide me the links in context with what MOM had stated about his client. And in fact Sundance what the Zimmermans did to move that money did make it appear shady. MOM stated that, as well as stating the reasons why. I aksked you numerous times now, and you keep avoiding the question. Who told the Zimmermans to move the money?

            • http://psychology.about.com/od/cognitivepsychology/f/dissonance.htm
              What Is Cognitive Dissonance?
              People tend to seek consistency in their beliefs and perceptions. So what happens when one of our beliefs conflicts with another previously held belief? The term cognitive dissonance is used to describe the feeling of discomfort that results from holding two conflicting beliefs. When there is a discrepancy between beliefs and behaviors, something must change in order to eliminate or reduce the dissonance.
              Examples of Cognitive Dissonance
              Cognitive dissonance can occur in many areas of life, but it is particularly evident in situations where an individual’s behavior conflicts with beliefs that are integral to his or her self-identity. For example, consider a situation in which a woman who values financial security is in a relationship with a man who is financially irresponsible.
              The conflict:
              • It is important for her to be financially secure.
              • She is dating a man who is financially unstable.
              In order to reduce this dissonance between belief and behavior, she can either leave the relationship or reduce her emphasis on financial security. In the case of the second option, dissonance could be further minimized by emphasizing the positive qualities of her significant other rather than focusing on his perceived flaws.
              A more common example of cognitive dissonance occurs in the purchasing decisions we make on a regular basis. Most people want to hold the belief that they make good choices. When a product or item we purchase turns out badly, it conflicts with our previously existing belief about our decision-making abilities.
              How to Reduce Cognitive Dissonance
              There are three key strategies to reduce or minimize cognitive dissonance:
              • Focus on more supportive beliefs that outweigh the dissonant belief or behavior.
              • Reduce the importance of the conflicting belief.
              • Change the conflicting belief so that it is consistent with other beliefs or behaviors.
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
              The theory of cognitive dissonance in social psychology proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by altering existing cognitions, adding new ones to create a consistent belief system, or alternatively by reducing the importance of any one of the dissonant elements.[1] Cognitive dissonance is the distressing mental state that people feel when they “find themselves doing things that don’t fit with what they know, or having opinions that do not fit with other opinions they hold.”[4] A key assumption is that people want their expectations to meet reality, creating a sense of equilibrium.[5] Likewise, another assumption is that a person will avoid situations or information sources that give rise to feelings of uneasiness, or dissonance.[1]
              Cognitive dissonance theory explains human behavior by positing that people have a bias to seek consonance between their expectations and reality. According to Festinger, people engage in a process he termed “dissonance reduction,” which can be achieved in one of three ways: lowering the importance of one of the discordant factors, adding consonant elements, or changing one of the dissonant factors.[6] This bias sheds light on otherwise puzzling, irrational, and even destructive behavior.
              Belief disconfirmation paradigm
              Dissonance is aroused when people are confronted with information that is inconsistent with their beliefs. If the dissonance is not reduced by changing one’s belief, the dissonance can result in restoring consonance through misperception, rejection or refutation of the information, seeking support from others who share the beliefs, and attempting to persuade others.
              An early version of cognitive dissonance theory appeared in Leon Festinger’s 1956 book, When Prophecy Fails. The believers met at a pre-determined place and time, believing they alone would survive the Earth’s destruction. The appointed time came and passed without incident. They faced acute cognitive dissonance: had they been the victim of a hoax? Had they donated their worldly possessions in vain? Most members chose to believe something less dissonant to resolve reality not meeting their expectations: they believed that the aliens had given earth a second chance, and the group was now empowered to spread the word that earth-spoiling must stop. (Similar to a religious person praying so hard that a loved one will survive, because God answers prayers. Then avoiding the cognitive dissonance when the person passes by deciding that God wanted the loved one in heaven now.)

              • Splitting http://www.afterpsychotherapy.com/splitting/
                Splitting as a mental process thus enables us to makes distinctions. Throughout life, splitting serves this exact function: it allows us to take an undifferentiated, confusing mass of experience or information and divide it into categories that have meaning. Without splitting, nothing would make sense to us. We wouldn’t be able to understand because we couldn’t divide the mass of sensory input into meaningful categories. Projection likewise has valuable and normal functions, as do other so-called defense mechanisms.
                Splitting can also serve the exact opposite function: that is, it can remove meaning by separating parts of a whole that actually belong together. This is where it becomes a defense mechanism and is used to ward off unbearable feelings and emotions. Although they’re not actually separate experiences, as I’ll discuss below, it’s useful to think about splitting either (1) the self or (2) the other person.
                So far, this has been fairly abstract and I think it’s time for an example. Let’s say that I have a hard time bearing my anger and aggressive feelings; maybe they were unacceptable in my family of origin and I was expected to be “nice”. In truth, I’m a nice and also a not-so-nice person, with a mixture of loving and hating impulses; when the anger and hatred can’t be tolerated, however, I will split them off: The loving and socially acceptable feelings — those are ME — and the hostile aggressive ones are NOT ME. Thus I have split myself (more accurately, my awareness of myself) into parts and disowned one of them, which almost always goes hand-in-hand with projecting it outside.

                • Dissociation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_(psychology)
                  Dissociation is a term in psychology describing a wide array of experiences from mild detachment from immediate surroundings to more severe detachment from physical and emotional experience. It is commonly displayed on a continuum.[1] The major characteristic of all dissociative phenomena involves a detachment from reality – rather than a loss of reality as in psychosis.[2][3][4][5] In mild cases, dissociation can be regarded as a coping mechanism or defense mechanisms in seeking to master, minimize or tolerate stress – including boredom or events such as daydreaming while driving a vehicle. Further along the continuum are non-pathological altered states of consciousness.[1][9][10]
                  More pathological dissociation involves dissociative disorders, including dissociative fugue and depersonalization disorder with or without alterations in personal identity or sense of self. These alterations can include: a sense that self or the world is unreal (depersonalization and derealization); a loss of memory (amnesia); forgetting identity or assuming a new self (fugue); and fragmentation of identity or self into separate streams of consciousness (dissociative identity disorder, formerly termed multiple personality disorder) and complex post-traumatic stress disorder.[11][12] Dissociative disorders are sometimes triggered by trauma, but may be preceded only by stress, psychoactive substances, or no identifiable trigger at all.[13] The ICD-10 classifies conversion disorder as a dissociative disorder.[1] The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders groups all dissociative disorders into a single category.[14]
                  Although some dissociative disruptions involve amnesia, other dissociative events do not.[15] Dissociative disorders are typically experienced as startling, autonomous intrusions into the person’s usual ways of responding or functioning. Due to their unexpected and largely inexplicable nature, they tend to be quite unsettling.

        • we have been over this a million times and you just don’t get it sundance.

          GZ specifically said in his jailhouse recording to NOT tell O’Mara the exact amount. Case closed. That is GZ’s right, but he had to pay the consequences. If he were honest with MOM upfront, the result would be different.

          What part of that don’t you understand?

          • also, that little nondisclosure ended costing George about a hundred grand since his bail was revoked for misrepresenting his financial status to the court.

            that is a stiff penalty, but it really was not GZ’s money.

            and i’m sure that MOM read GZ the riot act and told him any further nondisclosures and he could find another attorney. GZ knows he messed that up, so he never said anything. it was a stupid mistake and he paid the price for it.

            • and finally, we can assume that (if) MOM told GZ not to say anything about paypal, IT WAS BECAUSE GZ NEVER DISCLOSED THE TRUE AMOUNT.

              It was only after GZ fessed up and told MOM “what about the PP account” and that there was lots of money there, that MOM IMMEDIATELY informed the court.

              MOM is one of the most ethical attorneys i have seen, but GZ was not exactly forthcoming with him. $100,000 for a stupid lie? Think about it next time you want to be less that honest, especially to a court of law.

              • Now I truly believe you might work for his Law Firm. Because everything you just said is 100% pure BULLS**T. You are presenting yourself as just another ideologue who simply cannot fathom a belief other than what you have convinced yourself to be true.

                ……… And by golly you are sticking to it. at all costs.

                Go back and look at what you just said in the beginning of this comment stream. Then stop and ask yourself two things.

                #1) what *exactly* did GZ say, what did I hear him say?
                #2) What was the date of that conversation I am talking about having so much confidence in exactly what was being said.?

                • Ad Hominem much? Shoot the messenger as usual. Geez. Did you even read what the Clients Security fund was? Or did you just trust one of those there inside tipsters? Believe me I am just waiting for you to prove me wrong? BTW, who told the Zimmermans to move the money?

          • I agree with that stevie. SD just ignores, at every point, that George did in fact participate in some deception, for whatever reason. SD is so gung ho on wanting to implicate O’Mara as a liar, a thief, and a corrupt atty. that he is very purposely misleading everyone. He claims that GZ never lied, yet the jailhouse tapes paint a different picture. SD also misses the fact that the paypal account was never a part of GZ’s defense . The entire defense was based on what happened the night of the shooting. The paypal account is completely a different matter. For whatever reason SD is laser focused on the paypal account. The paypal account had nothing to do with the facts and circumstances of the GZ trial for second degree murder. Wouldn’t it be nice, and welcome, if SD focused on the railroading by the prosecution rather than on O’Mara and the paypal account?

            • Ya know… at this time I am wondering if SD himself was not duped by whoever he thought he was talking to behind the scenes.
              Where he should have been paranoid he was not. Now I too work for the defense like Nettles!? Geeezus.

              • As to the Zimmerman family members SD claims he talked to, why were any of them talking to SD about the case when they were all potential witnesses? Robert Sr. did in fact testify at trial. Robert Sr. was also the one who found Sonner and Uhrig, and wanted George to use them as his atty’s., George decided against that. Obviously the gag O’Mara tried to put on the Zimmerman family, asking them not to discuss the case with other’s didn’t work, especially with the BIL who he claims he talked to a bazillion times.

                SD claims that one of the Zimmerman family members told O’Mara about the paypal account, and how strong the donations were. If O’Mara told anyone to hide the donations, it was the BIL who I believe was in charge of the account, and who would have had first hand knowledge of the amount raised. Wasn’t one of the sizable transfers into his wife’s account who was George’s sister? Why would he talk with George about hiding the amount from O’Mara? Didn’t George give the BIL the control of the account when he was arrested and went to jail? If I am not mistaken George said something to Shellie on one of the phone calls that he needed to get her access to control of the account? Who was taking money out of the paypal account and transfering it around to different bank accounts?

                Could Rick Madigan be the BIL, who lost control of that pot of money, and hates O’Mara because of it?

                • I was thinking the same thing. However that would be speculating. It shows a motive, but I yet have proof to make that claim.

          • @stevieg, despite your being a known racist -based on your propensity for foul language- I will respond.

            You seem to forget, probably because it doesn’t fit your argument, that when GZ had his bond revoked I initially, like you, thought it was because of GZ and SZ lying or misleading O’mara.

            http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/06/01/george-zimmerman-back-to-jail-bail-revoked-for-misleading-court-about-finances/#comment-127084

            I actually wrote extensively about it seeming to be their fault. For all the reasons you outline, and that you are hung up on.

            Being disgusted, at the insufferable stupidity, I was considering just dropping any further research, support, or efforts on their behalf… and just watching along with everyone else.

            However, before taking any retreat action – I got back in the car and drove back to Orlando. I sought out the truth.

            I found a few attorneys willing to talk openly, albeit off record, about Mark O’Mara. His peers told me what was probably *most likely* to have happened – not because they were guessing, but because there was actually a prior history of O’Mara having done EXACTLY this same thing before. (telling people to omit financial data from filings)

            One of his clients got in REALLY big legal trouble for following O’Mara’s advice on the financial affidavit in a very wealthy divorce case. It cost his client a large amount of money, I was led to believe in the million dollar range.

            He was also caught one time before by either a judge, or an opposing attorney for misleading financials – in that example he blamed a co-counsel who darn near lost all her credibility, suffered fines and was under threat of having her license suspended.

            O’Mara is not well thought of “outside” of the Julison, NaJame, Francis, Morgan – pinky ring circle. (You might remember while GZ was in jail, O’Mara was walking the CatWalk arm-in-arm with Natalie Jackson and her crew)….

            It was also around this time while I was still in Orlando, when I talked to Robert Zimmerman Jr. He told me the entire construct of what actually took place, why O’Mara did it, and how angry he and everyone else was at the outcome.

            While George sat in jail for the month of June, because of this, his family was looking for an alternate attorney. No-one would touch it with a 10′ pole – especially because of the fact O’Mara had entrenched himself with the money.

            No FL attorney wanted to attempt to un-attach or unravel that Machiavellian ball of rubber bands. And they could not openly advertise, or send a bat signal, for a Non-FL attorney to take interest…. due to constant fear of media spinning narratives.

            As soon as GZ took the construct of the 2nd bond conditions – there was no hope for him to ever rid himself of O’Mara.

            • The family was looking for another attorney in the month of June, huh? You learned of O’Mara’s shady ways in June while GZ sat in jail huh?

              Perhaps the family forget to tell Ken/Scott. 3 days before the 2nd bond hearing, he was hot about learning that Sernio was the suspected leaker to Gutman. When asked for sources to his allegations he did like you do. You just have to take my word on it. http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/06/26/update-30-leaker-chickens-come-home-to-roost-george-zimmerman-case-detective-chris-serino-and-abcs-matt-gutman-busted/#comment-146451
              You a little further down thread, state GZ is being railroaded and predict there will be no trial. No worries about O’Mara yet, but its coming.

            • Sundance, again you are responsible for the advice you take. Be it from a friend, a parent, or an attorney. Much like how you are responsible from what you post about your research.

              As far as other peoples experiences with MOM…. you give no names nor ability to further any research on if they have a bone to pick with the guy. You need to do MORE research on your sources. If I took you word on it I would allow myself to be mislead many a time.

              “While George sat in jail for the month of June, because of this, his family was looking for an alternate attorney”
              Oh please. They were talking about how impressed they were with MOM in the jail house tapes.

              • That’s exactly the point Danny. If a pollster wants to do a poll showing that the Dem. is leading over the Republican, all he has to do is take a “random sample” of zip codes that he knows are Dem. strongholds. The same with a Rep. leaning pollster. You can always manipulate to get the results you want.

                There is no credibility in posting about the opinions of unknown people, but just saying take my word for it, they are credible people that told me X Y Z. Former clients who didn’t get the legal results they wanted, so O’Mara is a bad/corrupt atty. Other attorney’s who may have lost in court against O’Mara, so he is a cheat and a liar. SD claims he interviewed dozens of people in O’Mara’s area, and low and behold they all told him O’Mara is bad, and that he is not well liked in that area. Give me a break. All those people talked bad about O’Mara. Geeez I wonder how he has stayed in business for more than 30 years with such a bad reputation. Maybe he talked with a bunch of people who thought GZ was guilty because he shouldn’t have gotten out of the car. How dare he defend the white hispanic vigilente who went looking for trouble and found it. I’m sure they don’t have much good to say about O’Mara. Didn’t NeJame say something about George being wrong to get out of the car or something like that? I guess he and O’Mara are friends, he recommended O’Mara to George.

            • Sundance:

              @stevieg, despite your being a known racist -based on your propensity for foul language- I will respond.

              Well, I stopped reading right there SD. My propensity for foul language? And that makes me a known racist? You just don’t make any sense anymore SD.

              Go away before Stranahan drops a Breitbart bomb on you.

  10. If Rick Madigan does turn out to be Mark Osterman he violated the court’s order to not watch the trial as he was going to be a witness. Rick Madigan gave trial coverage on Diwataman’s blog and then moved to his own blog on July 4th.

  11. Rev Al at the 50th Anniversary March in Washington –

    Some new phrases creeping into his speech, after all the usual rhetoric.

    “We’ve got some housecleaning to do”. Saying that being thugs is not what the civil rights movement is fighting for, etc.

  12. Sybrina Fulton and Brenice King blame George Zimmerman’s “racism” and “racial profiling” for Trayvon’s death: Fifty years ago next week, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. spoke the famous words from his “I Have a Dream Speech” in front of the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C., words that have resonated in the national conscious ever since. It was then when Dr. King spoke these prophetic words, “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”

    On February 26, 2012, 18 months ago, a young black boy by the name of Trayvon Martin walked home from the store carrying a bag of Skittles and a bottle of iced tea. He was racially profiled, pursued, confronted and then shot and killed by an adult, George Zimmerman. On that night, Trayvon Martin was not judged by the content of his character, but by the color of his skin.

    We believe these two historic moments, one, a march for freedom, the other, the inexcusable murder of a child, are now inextricably tied in the fabric of our nation’s history. And we both knew the Zimmerman result would in many ways determine the state of Dr. King’s dream.

    The disappointing verdict that emerged a few weeks ago reminded us that we still have far to go in America when it comes to equality and freedom. We will not realize this dream until every child of color can safely walk home. We will not realize this dream until every law protects every citizen. We will not realize this dream until racism no longer rears its ugly head.

    Trayvon Benjamin Martin was killed because we have yet to realize the dream and deal with what Dr. King called one of society’s “triple evils”…racism. Because of this reality, we, the daughter of a slain civil rights leader and prophet, and the mother of a slain young black child, are committed to elevating the discussion on race relations and creating a better society for every child.

    When Dr. King spoke of racism 50 years ago, the color lines were absolutely clear: they were marked by the back of the bus, by the whites-only water fountains and by the whole concept of separate but equal. Today our struggle is not where we sit on a bus. Racism today is not so overt. But in many ways it is more pernicious. It has been subtly institutionalized. It still inflicts harm, but it has been labeled something else.

    Racism is imbedded in our laws and also resides in our hearts and minds. It is in the idea that a person of color does not belong in a certain neighborhood. Or that a young child wearing a hoodie could be dangerous. It is embodied in our racial profiling policies that target certain communities under the guise of public safety. It resides in the stop-and-frisk laws initiated to be a more effective way of fighting crime, yet in 2012, in supposedly progressive cities like New York, 85% of nearly 550,000 people stopped because of this law were Black or Latino. And it is contained in the “Stand Your Ground” laws that justify the actions taken by Zimmerman.

    The legacy of Dr. King and the tragic unjust death of Trayvon Martin are intertwined, destined to inspire change and move us forward as a nation. The movement that Dr. King helped begin continues with Trayvon and The Trayvon Martin Foundation and so many others. It is our hope that the frustration and despair borne from this disappointing verdict will create a new voter called the Trayvon Martin voter. These voters, a collection of young and old, White, Black, Hispanic and Asian, progressive and conservative, will demand change and commit to nonviolent social activism. They will say 50 years is too long to realize Dr. King’s dream.

    We have been asked over and over again in the past few weeks what we should do with our despair and frustration. We believe the answer lies in Dr. King’s philosophy. We must as a people develop a nonviolent frame of mind as described in the “Six Principles of Nonviolence” and use the Kingian model for social action outlined in the “Six Steps for Nonviolent Social Change.” For it is this kind of transformative movement, rooted and grounded in love, that “brings about miracles in the hearts of men.” In the words of Dr. King, we “refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism… that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality… we believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word.”

    To this question, we also say the answer lies in the pillars of Dr. King’s life… nonviolence, love and faith in God. It is because of these pillars he courageously spoke of the American Dream. For us these words are hope, life and spirit.

    “I say to you today, my friends, that in spite of the difficulties and frustrations of the moment, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream…I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal.'”

    One of us lost a father, the other a son, but we still hold on to these prophetic words and together we share “the Dream.”

    Bernice A. King is the youngest daughter of the late Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Coretta Scott King. Sybrina Fulton is the mother of Trayvon Martin and founder of The Trayvon Martin Foundation.

  13. Nettles,
    Gonna be heading out here in a bit. But before I do I wanted to say this morning I was up earlier then usual and caught the newer posts at CTH regarding MOM. By 8am when I went to reference a comment it was scrubbed of some comments. Now someone else was right here with me and saw it. I understand the whole “people email & ask a comment gets removed” thing, but this was like the majority of comments of a few individuals talking guns & ammo and why GZ may have been there. You would think you would have some of that at a Conservative blog. Nothing that appeared off mark relative to the convo, or thread. In fact they were just speaking about the type of guns the manufacture sells.

    • I’m off too. I’m attending a wedding this afternoon.

      If someone posts something and then regrets posting it, should it be allowed to be removed? Does the author get final say? Do the admin. sometimes let something stand that the person wants off?

      It’s another surprising thing to have come out of the conversation with Sundance, how heavily edited the site actually is.

      I get no emails here about such things nor does this site require even 1 administrator. The dog pound doesn’t post here at all.

      • You get no such privledge to need so many mods. Nettles. You are a Prog. who is shielding truth. Then again, if you were thinking about heavy editing you may need some help.

  14. You guys remember the abc clear audio of the crump interview? There are beeps in the background that vary in volume. Like a dying smoke detector. What I find odd, though, is the same beeps go off during Tracy’s missing person call. Just a weird coincidence I guess. It made me wonder, though, would a phone recorder/tape recorder make such noise?

    Either way, I wish the defense brought it up only because the idea of rachel being in a closet during the crump interview seems odd since it gave me the impression she was moving about. Also, did she explain why she was ‘in a closet’ other than trying to cover why the first girl sounded with a lighter/younger voice?

    • Colon Bowel, as he is known to some, has proven over and over that he is black first, and everything else comes after that. For a guy who formerly held a very high level Fed. Gov. post is now saying that a verdict rendered by a jury is “questionable”? Colon is very much like Eric Holder in that they are both just “looking out for their people” and the hell with the rest.

      • minpin – Colin Bowel has fallen from grace no doubt, I was reading last week he is about to be exposed through correspondence of his mistress, like Petraious was.

        I used to be a big fan of CP, but no more, I agree with your thoughts.

      • Actually there is picture and aireal photography evidence that Sadam Hussein did in fact have chemical weapons. They were hauled out of Iraq before the US hit the ground there. There have also been Syrian journolists that have pinpointed the sites in Syria where those chemical weapons were hidden Syria. There is more than ample proof that Sadam in fact used chemical weapons against those in his country he disagreed with on a religious basis, which included women and children. I think many say that Bush lied, there were no WMD’s in Iraq based on the fact that no nuclear weapons found. Valerie Plame’s husband, Joe Wilson lied when he said that Sadam didn’t try to buy yellow cake in Niger. There was proof provided later that he in fact did try to buy yellow cake while he was under the UN sanctions. He was trying to start up his nuclear program, and the yellow cake was a necessary ingredient, but the transaction fell through, and his program restart never got off the ground. There are some in the upper levels of US Gov. that are pooping their pants worrying about what will happen with the chemical weapons in Asaad’s control currently, and spead out in varrying locations should they fall into the rebel terrorists hands. I just read that some of those chemical weapons were found in a rebel tunnel. One of the major problems I had with the Bush admin. is that they allowed all of the lies to sit out there, such as there were no WMD’s in Iraq, and never once tried to inform the public of the truth of the chemical weapons in particular. That is all coming back now to bite them in the butt.

        • I agree. He did have WMDs underground. I remember those photos. He successfully used chemical weapons in the 80s against Iran and Kurds. He again used them after the Iraq/Iran War. The United Nations located chemical weapons in the early 90s and destroyed them. After that in 2003 we(USA) and the UK found he was procuring and obtained more deadly weapons, but they were never found. During inspections items were unaccounted for, and Iraq had not accepted the disarment. Although nothing was found during inspection, during the war these were found or used.
          50 deployed Al-Samoud 2 missiles
          Various equipment, including vehicles, engines and warheads, related to the AS2 missiles
          2 large propellant casting chambers
          14 155 mm shells filled with mustard gas, the mustard gas totaling approximately 49 litres and still at high purity
          Approximately 500 ml of thiodiglycol
          Some 122 mm chemical warheads
          Some chemical equipment
          224.6 kg of expired growth

      • Powell’s recent comments concerning the Martin/Zimmerman case were intemperate and I believe due to his having knowledge limited to the Crump narrative.

        As for the WMD issue, Powell and Wilkerson went every day for almost a week to the CIA to vet every element of that speech. No one at CIA expressed any reservations for any element of the speech during this process. What was Powell supposed to think. Don’t forget that the elements (alleged evidence) were initially provided by the CIA to begin with.

        Powell’s decision could only be as good as the information given to him. Powell’s comment based on the Crump narrative is only as good as the narrative, and we know what this is worth. When the president asks the CIA chief, “is this best you’ve got?” and the CIA chief replies, “Mr. President, it’s a slam dunk?”, what is the president supposed to do, or believe? What is the Secretary of State supposed to believe?

  15. Nettles –

    After reading all these posts from yesterday and last night, it develops that Sundance was in contact with GZ and members of his family, though denying it publicly.

    As I recall, I got grilled pretty hard by Sundance as to whether I might be connected, even is some way, to O’Mara’s or his team (which I wasn’t and am not), and an irony being that the griller was the one with hidden connections.

    But it does kind of add up, at least part of what Sundance asserts, as to the feelings among many GZ family members that they were upset with O’Mara. The focus of CTH being shifted towards pushing O’Mara in a certain direction, according to Sundance, it makes sense that they would come down hard on commenters who might offer a more benign explanation for some of MOM’s actions, or non-actions – and thus “interfering” with the goals of the CTH regarding this case.

    As I was tracking the Zimmerman case I found the CTH site and it clearly had a POV. But, I was under the impression that it was a venue for the exchange of ideas and opinion concerning the GZ/TM tragedy. I was unaware of the specific CTH plan re O’Mara, and interpreted the harsh tones as an understandable vigilance against the Trayvonites or trolls who, no doubt, were seeking to disrupt the CTH and hamper the discovery of evidence that further supported George.

    At some point, I was told by some administrator something to the effect that CTH wasn’t the place for posting anything supporting MOM. After some reflection, I decided that the administrator had a point and reflected that in some answer. From that point, I stayed away, for the most part, from commenting directly on criticisms of MOM.

    Yesterday, I offered a comment on a post from Little Laughter which dealt with the somewhat stupid and harmful response to the press from MOM’s spokesman Vincent. I did not think of my post as support for MOM. Rather, it was a statement that LL’s assertion that the Vincent comments were a condemnation of George “exercising his constitutional rights” could not be gleaned from the language of the Vincent comment, in my opinion.

    Some contra-commentary to my observations ensued including a contribution from Madigan (whom I still assume is not Sundance). Madigan opined at one point, that I was one of the reasons that he had not posted at CTH at an earlier time, and that “…and pretty soon, everyone was walking on eggshells and apologizing for saying anything truthful about O’Mara.”

    I responded with the observation that yesterday’s post and extended commentary on “former-zimmerman-attorney-mark-omara-disparages-his-client-george/” itself stood in opposition to the comment about everyone “walking on eggshells”. After which Sundance weighed in, not discussing the substance of my initial comments, but stating near the end the following:

    “We are continually surrounded by people who just cannot accept the truth as it unfolds in front of their eyes.”

    The fact is that the truth continues to be unfolded before our eyes. Yesterday in the exchanges between Sundance and Nettles, and others; we were slowly learning the back story. The truth that was unfolded before our eyes yesterday, was something quite different from what we were told was the truth for months on end. Which unfolded truths are we to believe when it turns out that the “truths” are in irreconcilable conflict?

    And which truths have yet to be unfolded?

    • “Which truths have yet to be unfolded”
      Good question. It will take time. I have found it is like asking for an arm to get to the bottom of things. For instance the whole “Clients Security Fund” Misleading to a reader when SD does not give refrences to his conclusions. I could have cleared that up awhile ago.
      On who his sources are, it is obvious that they are sources who have beef with MOM for one reason or another. Yet again, as someone who investigates such things, one could only be in search of that specific
      narrative. Much like and how MSM does it. So to me it is not a POV, it is a deliberate plan and narrative, and despite the intention, even if it was for the family, it is not the whole truth.

      • I am sure that the Zimmerman family members who had behind the scene discussions are now none to happy with SD revealing those discussions, yet he attacked Nettles because he claims she didn’t honor a confidential email. SD claimed that before the trial ended he had to keep his sources confidential, and that he had to keep his cards close to his vest but, now that the trial is over he is free to say what he wants. I asked in another comment, why were any of the Zimmerman’s in contact, and telling SD things about the case, the legal team etc. when I would think they were all potential witnesses? To me this is yet another display being put on by SD in order to tout his own horn. See how great I am? I was talking to those right at the source, haha. Ain’t I great.

        I’ve said before, and I’ll say it again, SD started out doing some really great work when he was exposing the Scheme Team one by one, and then connecting the dots. The CTH was gaining tons of new posters, and he was acknowledged by those like Jack Cashill and even Mike McDaniels for his excellent research. Look at the number of people, even those now relatively new to the CTH site that fall on their knees at SD’s feet. They believe that only the CTH is a truth seeker, and a truth finder. They believe that there is no other site that is more honorable or credible. Just ask justthefactsplez, she’ll tell you all about the wonder’s of SD. Once SD started gaining some “fame” it went directly to his head. SD is really someone who needs and thrives on pats on the back and atta boys. Many left willingly or not when he started slamming O’Mara. As Hoosan said above, even if you just rendered another option or reason for something O’Mara did or did not do, you were taken to the woodshed, and often didn’t return from that trip. Yet SD complains because O’Mara said he was a control freak, and didn’t want the Zimmerman family members going out and about talking about the case with others before the trial took place. SD is as controlling as it gets. I wanted to puke when I read comments from him during the hearings when he screamed because O’Mara should have said this or that. He even went after West at one point because West didn’t argue something the way SD thought it should have been argued.

        Reading the comments over at the tree, on the O’Mara had no right to throw Zimmerman under the bus for visiting a gun manufacturer column, I noticed some comments from LittleLaughter where he/she is right there with the best of them throwing O’Mara under the bus. I thought that was a little odd after he/she came here to tell us we shouldn’t be talking about SD, and that we should be focusing on the railroading that happened to GZ. I assumed that he/she was referring to the railroading done by the prosecution. I didn’t realize that he/she was referring to the railroading supposedly done by GZ’s own legal team.

        • I am mobile today as I have some wrapping things up before school starts. I have two seperate start days for my kids. One is moving on over to cyber schooling…. so gotta coach. Things will be picking up for me in no time real soon. I advocate and well round my parts we have some wanting to take away cyber school making it similiar to private schooling. But I do want to reply throughly to your comments later today. I will be multi tasking so do not think I am ignoring anyone.

      • I do not expect to be banned and there is no reason for banning.

        I have always been respectful and civil, even if some have interpreted my civility as a way of obfuscating discussion (see yesterday’s commentaries)

        My interests are clarity, consistency, and accuracy.

        They apply to my reaction to criticisms of O’Mara and they apply to my reaction to criticisms of Sundance.

        Regardless of the present controversy, the fact remains, imo, that Sundance’s capability to frame critical issues in a usable, reader-friendly basis, with the links presented in context, on a daily basis is very effective and makes the site, at least for me, well worth keeping up with.

        To that point, not too long ago, I think it was Madigan who insinuated some hypocrisy on my part for having even commended Sundance.

        Anyway, I think we can always use more civility in our discussions, whatever, and whereever.

        • I don’t think I was uncivil in the post that got me banned. To each their own.

          He could do a better job at attributing thanks to the people he copies and pastes.

          Rick sure did zero in on your posts didn’t he? He knows whether or not you commended Sundance? Wow!

          I think Sundance revealed his reason for not using his real identity (usually) when posting on other sites. He pointed out to me, there now Nettles, you have access to my personal information.

        • I understand what you are saying hooson. We all enjoyed the CTH at one time for the very things you commend it for. I would not enjoy seeing the site go away. That is not my purpose as I have stated before. I also do not expect it to change based on my opinions of it. If site admins. there choose to be the voice for some, hell more power to them.
          If they choose to be critical based on their POV I respect that. I can still disagree. I can still ask questions. I can still hold someone responsible when they misinform or mislead. I just do not have the right to do so @ CTH. That is fine by me.

  16. I’m not sure why Sundance has come here attacking some personally. I do believe he’s been here before, under another identity, attacking as well. But most of you are well aware of my thoughts on that score.

    I do think that members of the family bought into Sundance’s conspiracy theory about Mr. O’Mara. I also give benefit of the doubt to Mr. O’Mara, in large part, because he was George Zimmerman’s choice of lawyer.

    I do know there were lots of other lawyers who wanted George’s case. Had George wanted to take his case to someone else, that really was an option for him.

    I believe on or about July 26, 2012 there was a disagreement with how the defense fund and legal defense was being handled. Some family members blamed O’Mara for the sudden drop in donations that had been coming in. Once he took over the fund, the donations all but dried up, or so it was opined. Maybe the bill for security was another disagreement.

    You may recall that George’s parents launched their own donation site at this time. How did they announce that? Through the treehouse. We all started questioning was that authentic? The Treehouse was saying yes it was but wouldn’t say how they knew. I was on facebook and saw a post at Justice for George Zimmerman site. I questioned the admins. there how did they know the site really belonged to the parents? They responded their source was very good but they can’t say who. Much the same was said at the treehouse. I emailed the legal team and got no reply. I emailed the Friends of George Zimmerman site (George’s donation site) and got no reply. The administrator of the legal team’s facebook page disappeared for over a day.

    We all knew something was going on and it wasn’t good. I emailed George’s donation site and told him I was getting the vibe that he may be switching attorneys again. I didn’t think it would be a good idea. I asked for verification that the website for donations to his parents was valid. I got no response.

    I was not a regular reader at the treehouse then. All the posts about O’Mara appeared way over the top in the conspiracy bin for me. Looking back on that now, maybe George’s father and brother do hold O’Mara accountable for telling GZ his donation account wasn’t going to be a factor. Again, that was said on April 12 (if it was said at all), the account was 3 days old. George had been in jail for one of those days.

    The family wouldn’t have had much opportunity to talk with George after his bond was revoked. He was out of state and had to make arrangements to get back to Seminole County within 48 hours. The family had learned their lesson about talking to each other while George was in jail, so for the month of June they couldn’t ask him what was going on.

    George and Shellie worked hard to keep from everyone but his sister and brother-in-law the amount of money in the account and their behavior after getting that first bond proves it. O’Mara told the court on June 1st, the day bond was revoked, that George wanted and asked his family to put up all of the bail money. He didn’t want to use a bondsman. O’Mara told the court he spent 36 hours trying to convince George to use a bails bondsman and then only 10% would be needed to get him out. Had O’Mara been privy to the amount of money GZ had access to, that conversation wouldn’t have been needed. In that time, neither the sister nor the brother-in-law told the others about the money that was now in SZ and Gracie’s bank accounts. George’s father and George’s grandmother were trying to get mortgages on their houses to come up with the full bond amount so George didn’t have to use a bondsman.

    Sundance posts here that says Robert Zimmerman Jr. knew the amount and told O’Mara about the amount before the first bond hearing is in my opinion, incorrect. I haven’t heard from Robert yet. I will post when I do. Robert wouldn’t allow his dad and grandma to try to get mortgages if he knew the donation account was successful.

    As pointed out repeatedly, there is evidence on the calls that Ken/Scott and George made a decision to keep O’Mara in the dark about the amount that was coming in. O’Mara’s advice to George about the donation account happened 3 days after the account got set up and most believed no one would donate to it.

    After George got out of jail on July 5th or 6th, 2012, he was able to talk to his family. Can you imagine the conversation that took place? Why did he put his parents and grandparents through trying to mortgage on their houses when he had all that money? Perhaps in a defensive posture and as a way to explain himself, he told his family that O’Mara told him not to disclose it. They don’t want to blame their family member and they project the blame onto O’Mara’s shoulders.

    There were quite a few family members posting on the treehouse and they gave themselves away quite easily. I’m sure O’Mara watched for this and tried to shut communication down to the loosed-lipped ones.

    Whatever played out there in July 2012, George made a decision to stick with Mark O’Mara. Some didn’t like it and they started venting to Sundance.

    I was listening very carefully to Robert Jr. when he talked about O’Mara and contact with George. I posted sometime back, that it was quite possible that not even Robert Jr. or his dad knew strategies of George’s defense as they were witnesses in the case and to protect everybody, information had to be guarded closely. While George’s immediate family may have understood that, some others may have not and took their belly-aching to Sundance.

    Sundance’s judgement is questionable and he appears to reach conclusions with a minimum of information.

    I reflected on the post discussing the donation debacle in the first bond hearing and I’ve decided not to post it at this time. Sundance again, is dangerously putting Shellie at risk with his theories. If what he is suggesting is true, Shellie and George worked with the lawyer to commit a fraud upon the court, and I don’t buy it for one minute.

    Those kids (George and Shellie) are young and were confused. You can tell that in the way they handled bonding out in April. I understand their initial mistrust of O’Mara especially given after the news conference I watched the last two lawyers give on April 10th. I understand their reluctance. The money was a brand new thing and it was but one of several major issues that young man was facing on April 11th. O’Mara’s advice to them can only be as good as the information provided him. If he is hearing donation amounts of $700 and $2000 in accounts, then yes, you’d be telling your client that the accounts won’t factor into being declared indigent. The amount they had access to is a whole new ball-game and I do think O’Mara truly did not know it when he told the court that on April 20th.

    Sundance once told me there was video and audio of the conversation between George and Mark where Mark told him not to report it. He told me that was in the hands of Ms. Corey. My initial reaction was bullshit. It’s against the law to listen in on client lawyer conversations and watching O’Mara go after Corey’s office for discovery violations leaves no doubt the prosecution isn’t holding anything over O’Mara’s head. In fact, it’s O’Mara who is gunning for Corey and BDLR for unethical behavior.

    I’m very sadden to read how misleading and truly abusive Sundance was to his guests at the site. Yes, at some point he decided to make it an Anti-O’Mara site and in doing so nearly jeopardized the very guy we were all trying to support.

    What a mess.

    • I have not read your whole comment yet. At some point there may have been contentions with family & friends after MOM took control. But, I blame that more on Urhig and Sooner! GZ never did make collateral for the second bond. The timing of everything makes perfect sense when it is put in context. When Ken was posting, when the parents opened their fund, to all CTH posts. I do believe SD did have contact with individuals who had contentions with MOM. No doubt. But if that is the case I question their motives in why they supported GZ then. There were rumors that GZ was not close to his brother before this. And GZ also said in jail house tapes Ken was the big brother he never had. And SD now claims Gladys and Jorge had him doxx their niece & daughter. Appears this family had a hard time giving up control under such circumstances. Good intentions I am sure, but it appears GZ was aware who was capable of keeping him safe, and what was best for the outcome.

    • When Sundance claimed that no one would take George’s case after the O’Mara caused paypal fiasco, and that George was stuck with him, Jose Baez came to mind. He really did want the case, and someone offered to pay for the entire defense if George selected him as his attorney. No doubt there were some attorney’s that didn’t want the case, it was a very high profile racially charged case, and was made so even before George was arrested. I’m sure some didn’t want the death threats to them and their families they knew would be on the horizon. How many murders have been committed just recently, with one at least being a revenge killing in the name of Justice for Trayvon. Does anyone doubt that any attorney representing the white hispanic murdering vigilante would be killed with no guilt or shame, but would propel the killer right to the top of their gang? On the other hand, I have no doubt that some attorney’s would have jumped at the chance to represent a high profile client who could give them fame, and who saw that the prosecution’s case was weak to non-existent from the get go. I understood George not wanting Baez because of the

      Nettles, you mentioned the presser given by the quacks Sonner and Uhrig just a few days before the arrest. Even some not on GZ’s side were aghast at that presser. They tried to paint George as mentally unstable, and also tried to imply that George may have taken off and ran from the state to escape charges that would be filed against him. You have to ask yourself why Robert Sr. would have thought they would have been a good choice to represent George with the false accusations they made in a public presser. They said they were backing off from representing George even though George never hired them to represent him. Uhrig was recently punished by the Fla. Bar for the second time, and it is pretty darn hard to get punished by the Fla. Bar. If that were not the case, Benjamin Crump would be disciplined for his very unethical behaviour, for threatening boycots, inciting the blacks to riot, and for witness tampering at the very least.

      I would think that many had come to grips that when the prosecution released the jailhouse tapes, there is no question that George was participating in deception against O’Mara, especially with his conversation with the BIL. Some of the conversations between Shellie and George were also questionable when they talked about transferring the funds into different accounts. George is actually lucky that O’Mara agreed to stay on as his attorney. I do think they both George and Shellie did learn their lesson after that fiasco. I don’t believe that Shellie lied in court about the paypal account. She offered to get the BIL on the phone to give BDLR the answer to his question. BDLR didn’t want the answer. Even though BDLR wanted the original bail set a million bucks, it was more valuable to BDLR to let him be released on a lower bail amount, as it gave BDLR the opportunity to go after Shellie with perjury charges, and get the bail revoked, and then upped to the million he wanted it set at. There was absolutely nothing illegal about the paypal account, transferring amounts from paypal to bank accounts, and then transferring the amounts around. It did provide some bad optics, but, George and the BIL hiding info. from O’Mara was very destructive, and O’Mara was correct when he said that George had some credibility issues that he would have to work on.

      I’m not surprised that there appears to have been some animosity between the family members. The amount of stress they were under, with the death threats to all of them alone, could drive some to do or say some irrational things. If O’Mara was being kept in the dark on the amount of donations being collected, or as SD claimed the strength of the donations coming in, I could understand him thinking that the account wasn’t a significant consideration. I don’t remember anyone ever asking for donations before that was in a similar situation as George, and the person collecting so much money. It really was a new phenomenon that I doubt many expected to happen. Just as the donations dried up to a crawl just before the trial, that could have happened at any time since the account was opened. I do believe that Sundance’s anti-O’Mara posts did in fact have a negative effect on the donations. I remember one of the treehouse admins. coming to this site to say that yes the treehouse did have a donation section, but it was definitely not visible. You had to click on a picture, and then click on something else, if I am not mistaken to get to the donation page. On the positive side, when the defense put out a call for donations saying they were down to their last $5,000. people did come through and they were able to raise something like $85,000 in just a short amount of time. I’m sure that didn’t sit well with SD.

      Danny, you had wondered in a post above if SD wasn’t being duped by some he was talking to in the background. I would have to say that those in the background were more likely the ones duped by SD. Early on SD said something about not wanting to talk with those involved in the case, or something like that. He said that he wanted to retain the ability to post on the case from an unbiased perspective. Now we find out that he was in fact talking to those involved in the case in some way while saying he wanted to remain unbiased. Why talk to the BIL a bazillion times if you want to remain unbiased? SD, with a concerted effort went out poking his nose in something he had no business poking his nose into. I don’t doubt that it added to some family animosities. Imagine a family member being told by SD that if they didn’t talk George into dumping O’Mara, he was going to do bad things to his client George. Imagine being called comfortably clueless and naive because you were unsuccessful or unwilling to convince George that he was going to suffer because of his legal choice. Sundance had no business interjecting himself into the affairs of a family who had been rocked by a railroading prosecution. I wonder how the Zimmerman family members feel now that SD is willingly disclosing that he and they were communicating about the case, the family problems, and who now is going after Shellie’s defense

      Yes, what a mess. Anyone having any legal business in Fla. would do well to stay as far away from Sundance Cracker as they can get. Especially Wes White and Ben Kruidbos.

      • No, I do not think Shellie lied either. It appears she was a cats paw. It was clear she had to be walked through the whole process. And at that time there was not much communication with MOM. Someone already involved had been advising GZ. I believe this confused GZ. He was in jail. Hearing many things. You have to look at who was communicating with him. We know SZ did not advise him. Someone was advising GZ against MOM. For what it is worth MOM protected their ass by not having those other jail house tapes released!

      • Ie; Duping…. I do believe SD when he says he personally contacted no one. He never came out and said they never contacted him. And when he asked me about getting busted for libel I knew what he meant as the convo. progressed. He also said the family offered him money to keep going and he refused it. Think about it.

        • Does not mean SD is off the hook. It just means there is a grander scheme. Which is why he can be so sure of himself in saying all this.

        • Danny- I don’t believe that the few dozen people who SD interviewed in O’Mara’s area contacted him. As to the Zimmerman family, as Nettles had said, Ken was posting at the CTH early on. I think I remember Robert Sr. posting there pretty early on as well. I do find it hard to believe that Glady’s would contact SD. I have no illusions about the cousin W9 who really could have done major damage to GZ. As it was she occupied a few news cycles when she claimed he sexually molested her. GZ was called a child molester because of her statements. Even more damaging to GZ was when she called the SFD a day or so after the shooting and claimed that GZ was a racist. If I’m not mistaken, the officer she talked to, that recorded a part of the phone conversation was one of the three that pressured Serino into filing charges against GZ. I have zero, zip, nada sympathy for her at all. Didn’t her father, Glady’s brother threaten to disown her for doing what she did?

          Even if any of the Zimmerman’s made the initial contact with SD, he then had their contact info. and I would not put it past him to have kept the contact ongoing. Did the BIL contact SD a bazillion times? Maybe, but I doubt it was always him making the contact. Seems that SD found the person he was looking for to further his opinions and posts against O’Mara. Obviously GZ trusted the BIL enough to hand over control of the paypal account to him. Osterman said in his book that George was closest to his sister, didn’t he? I would think that when the family members found out about the amount of funds in the paypal account, possibly through the prosecution release of the bank records, when they saw a sizable amount transferred into the sister’s account, they may have gotten their dander up. I do put a lot of credibility in Nettles claim that George, Shellie, the sister, and the BIL were keeping the account information from the other family members. And yes, why would O’Mara be asking Glady’s about getting a mortgage on their home to meet bail? I’m not sure about George wanting to pay for the full first bail. Even that lower amount would have put a severe strain on his ability to even pay for his living expenses. The million dollar bail he couldn’t even dream of paying for.

        • I have no idea. I found it odd that Robert Jr. was the only family member in court supporting George when the hearings were happening.

          The first time his family was in court was Robert Jr. and his dad on June 29th, the 2nd bond hearing and then Robert starting coming to every hearing after that.

          Once Jury selection started, Robert Jr. stopped coming and Shellie and the family showed up. Then on verdict day, Robert Jr. was in New York to be on Piers Morgan’s show. I thought that odd. Why wasn’t he with his brother in the courtroom to support his family and George with whatever the verdict was in the case?

          I also found it troubling the Martin/Fulton family weren’t there for the verdict. They demanded the trial, they should have witnessed its outcome and thanked the jury for their time. The jurors’ lives were affected deeply b/c the Martin/Fulton family demanded a public trial.

          • I find it odd that the only two family members allowed in the court room and not on the witness list to be one who held money and the other to be the spokesman and the ones that were in the background asking for money and running the show to be kept out and hiding behind SD and so critical of MOM.

          • I do not find it troubling that the Martin/Fulton were not there for the verdict. It was fitting. Were their lawyers confident that a guilty verdict would have been rendered, then that family would have been present.

          • The Zimmerman family stated that they were splitting time in court in order to properly care for their grandmother. So when Robert was there, the parents were not, and vice versa.

          • I got the impression that when Robert Jr. attended the trial one or two days in the beginning, and then when Shellie started coming, he stopped attending, that there may have been no love lost there between them. I read that Robert was staying home to take care of the grandmother so the parents could be at the courthouse. Was Robert Jr. the only one who could take care of Grandma? I don’t remember reading that the BIL ever attended any of the trial days. George apparently trusted him with the paypal account, but then he never came to the courthouse to support George during the trial.

            • I got that vibe too. There is something going on between Robert Jr. and Shellie I think. Like they don’t like each other or something. I don’t know. It was sad to watch her sit in court in the family row, all by herself some days.

              He didn’t take Grandma to New York the night of the verdict I’m sure. Who was with her then?

              There were several young men in the family row. One of them could have been the BIL.

              Back in July 2012, it occurred to me when it appeared the family was fracturing on how to proceed forward, Mr. O’Mara not only has to manage the legal side of things, the media and security but also the family dynamics. Wow what a challenge.

            • None of them were there except who we saw, even after they were free to show their faces in support. None yet have spoken. GZ. could not make collateral, the Ostermans went on TV and wrote a book. RJsr. wrote a book. Ken went CTH. RZjr. went media. SD is anti Mom with all these claims. Makes ya wonder who speaks for GZ?

    • Nettles – jmho, it is NOT important what GZ’s family thought about MOM/West nor does it matter what RZ, Jr. thought of MOM/West, GZ is an ADULT & was not 17 & living under their roof, GZ, as an adult, made his own decision DESPITE his families opinions, just as he should have done! The Zimmerman FAMILY DIDN’T PAY for GZ’s Defense & neither parent was a “Criminal Defense Attorney,”if they had paid for GZ’s defense, certainly, imo, their opinion would have mattered at least to GZ but they didn’t! In fact, even GZ didn’t pay for his excellent defense. You can’t argue with the NOT GUILTY VERDICT & why some won’t allow the rhetoric to die down is puzzling, it doesn’t matter now NOR did the opinions matter then about what they thought, their opinions didn’t change anything! Clearly GZ’s family DID NOT KNOW better than GZ about his defense.

      GZ is an adult, it seems a lot of people want to impose their opinions on GZ or try to control him as to what he should do, I can see where MOM grew tired of GZ’s family. MOM/West did their best to protect GZ, to represent him, & to try to control negative information from coming out as the nightmare had already occurred w/the Ostermans. jmho, it’s disappointing that Glady’s/Sr./Jr. might not have been happy w/MOM/West & more disappointing to read they may have shared it with others. Did their opinions matter? imo, NO! They owe GZ unconditional love no matter what happened & the support they provided GZ through his trial, they did what EVERY good parent would do in their situation. I was lucky that my parent’s NEVER IMPOSED their opinions on me or my life, BUT, my dad would give his opinion ONLY if I ask for it.

      I would think the Zimmerman family may not have been happy when MOM told them the way it was, Sr. published a book & I’m sure MOM wasn’t happy but it was Sr.’s right to do so & he did just that. MOM may not have been happy with ALL the interviews Jr. did, but Jr. did ALL the interviews anyway, it was his right to do so.

      The ONLY thing that matters about the representation MOM/West provided to GZ, was GZ/SZ’s opinion of the job MOM/West did. You can’t argue w/NOT GUILTY & being able to live free, imo, GZ made the best decision w/the Defense he had.

      • I agree. George is his own man. It would do well for his supporters to actually support his wishes.

        If you can support than just stay silent. But the pete’s sake don’t try to sabotage what he is trying to achieve.

        George had a great team on the defense and against so much they prevailed. Now I’m looking forward to watching Shellie’s defense put egg on the prosecutor’s face. Go Shellie!

  17. On May 2nd, one of the participants here shared with me a screen shot of a direct message in twitter from Robert Zimmerman Jr. Robert gave his opinion on a part of the trial and the person who received it took it for the absolute truth insider information. I responded that Robert Jr. may not be privy to the unredacted defense discovery and he was giving his opinion, just like we do, based on the information we had available. The person who received it was very sure that Robert had access to information we did not. Maybe, maybe not. I wrote this post on May 4th to try to caution those giving information and those receiving information. It’s a good review, in light of Sundance’s revelations.

    https://annettekblog.wordpress.com/2013/05/04/may-4-2013-gz-open-thread/#comment-374

    • Nettles, it was pretty apparent to me where RZjr. stood when he had promoted CTH on twitter. And it was pretty clear to me how MOM avoided CTH and the Scheme Team were frequent visitors even puting them in court filings. Where I knew I was right was when RZjr. pulled the twitter feed of the baby killers and using it as an example of his own bros. case. I thought Christ that will be a doozie IF GZ has to take the stand. Most of what RZjr. did and said you could tell was not inside info. That would have never happened if RZjr.had insider info. Yet, a better rep. then Taffe but he used his status just the same. What really nail it to the coffin was the speech RZjr. did as the trial started.

  18. Here is a small example of giving away information that could have exposed George and helps understand why his legal team might want to tighten it up. I’ll use Ken as Sundance has already destroyed that confidence.

    Ken on April 2nd
    Appeals for help to get the NAACP letter out there and outs himself as the author
    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/04/02/zimmerman-family-confronts-naacp-directly/#comment-96739

    Ken assures posters on April 24th, the donated money will get to George – new site is a “defensive move”
    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/04/24/is-zimm-site-gone-treeper-research-needed-whats-going-on-with-zimmerman-site/#comment-105500

    Ken on the Treehouse
    Venting about Serino on June 26, 2012 = GZ was sitting in jail at the time.
    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/06/26/update-30-leaker-chickens-come-home-to-roost-george-zimmerman-case-detective-chris-serino-and-abcs-matt-gutman-busted/#comment-146451

    Ken and Justfactplz discussing Mark Osterman’s book in August. (shows disagreement and reveals he seen the book b4 it was public)
    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/08/25/new-george-zimmerman-book-to-be-released-sept-10th-defending-our-friend-the-most-hated-man-in-america-the-george-zimmerman-we-know/#comment-184492

      • I doubt it. Last I heard, he’s pretty pissed with me but then again Sundance was the source.

        This is another area I tried to help George and his family out in. For example, we got to know that Ken was actually Scott. Frances Robles printed his full name and what state he lived in (it’s not Florida) after the jail house calls got released.

        In the call where Shelly tells George she is going to call Ken on the cellphone, she puts the phone down with GZ on live air and uses a cell phone to call Ken. She says…. Hi Scott…George wanted….

        I emailed them things in discovery that gave out GZ’s private information or in some of the discovery, you would know where GZ stayed when he was out on the first bond.

        With that feedback, I hoped to help the redaction process to keep them all safe. But when they wouldn’t stop posting and making mistakes, what can you do?

        • What I would like to know is if the BIL will be testifying at Shellie’s trial that O’Mara told them not to disclose the paypal info. It’s unfortunate that the prosecution may use the BIL as a witness, but, I doubt that Kelly Simm’s will use him in any way to help Shellie at her trial, other than on cross examination. If I am reading correctly that the BIL was in touch with SD a bazillion times, I would probably consider him a loose cannon. All Simms would have to do was to play the jailhouse recording where the BIL is hiding info. from O’Mara.

    • One of the comments from Ken to JTFP was interesting-

      “What scares me for him is that “friends” have been awfully selfish in their attempts to “help” GZ only to his detriment. If there is ANYTHING you can do or say to make this book not happen, GZ will be better for it”

      It seems that he knows that JTFP is intimately involved with the book authors. I’ve read that JTFP was Sondra’s mother. Nettles you had said that she showed up at the CTH in order to promote the Osterman’s book. I also remember after the book came out, and the Osterman’s did the Dr. Phil interview, JTFP layed low and didn’t post at the treehouse because many were pizzed at her for promoting the book. Didn’t she say herself that she had to go into hiding for awhile?

      WOW what a tangled freakin’ web that was woven.

      • JTFP had shared a little earlier that Mark O’Mara was given an advanced copy of the book and no one had access. Then Ken posts he read it.

        Yes JTFP made it known she was pro-book, until she was convinced it might be bad timing. It had to evolve.

    • What makes that story the most interesting is that Lee Stranahan along with Andrew Breitbart did in fact do extensive research on the original Pigford issue. Doesn’t Sundance have “I want you to be Andrew Breitbart” at the top of his website? Why yes he does. I know I got a few Breitbart stars when I was a member in good standing (haha) at the treehouse. For Sundance to be slammed by a current Breitbart writer has got to leave an impact on SD’s brain. WOW is all I can say.

      • Lee is telling him exactly what we have been trying to say. Stop outing people while being in the dark.

        Apparently, Sundance called Julison a murderer and wished him dead. OMG.

        He also talks about posting and outing the wrong DD and not correcting it.

      • Sd was crude for doing that. Now PC, do you see why I went all the way back to Kevin Dujan? SD was called out so many times for stealing links and never giving credit. But CTH admin that shall not be named they played cats paw willingly, even on major network blogging and radio. They just made Nettles again modify a blog by claiming victim, no boots were ever on the ground. Just like Dujan. Never on the ground. Haha. They left SD looooong time ago. It is all online to follow, SD came here cause of it!

        • Have you listened to the radio show by Lee. It’s bang on to what we’ve been trying to tell him. He’s a coward for posting anonymously while posting other people’s personal information. He also wished death on Ryan Julison. Mr. Julison called into the show near the end of his program.

          It curled my hair.

          • No. I have not listened but put up the link in side bar. I will as well. Maybe we have a new breed here as I said before. Notice SD will not answer me who advised the Zimmermans to move the money? It has been two and a half days. I am aware there are Briebarts who hate SD. Including Briebarts wife. Anon is not the Andrew way. Never ever.

          • Nettles I appreciate that Stranahan is outing Sundance for the cowardly fraud that he has been. Having said that it in fact was Ryan Julison who was the architect of the Scheme Teams false narrative. It was Julison’s design that 12 yearl old pictures of TM were put out there, along with nasty pictures of George next to them. It was Julison who did embark on the false campaign against George. He did have media contacts like Gutman and Brian Williams. I have no sympathy for Ryan Julison at all. The fact that he called into the show, and claimed what he did, that Sundance said he should be murdered may be true, or it may not. Julison has as many reasons to lie as Sundance does. I’m thrilled though that Strananahan is exposing Sundance for being the idiot blogger that he is. If Sundance had any credibility at all, he may have been picked up by one of the Breitbart sites. I had considered that Sundance was in a way auditioning for a spot to post at a Breitbart site. Obviously they look for real journolists, not off the wall conspiracy theorists like Sundance. Sundance reminds me of Alex Jones.

  19. Julison took George’s life and threw it in the toilet, willingly, without vetting it. I won’t get into the beef with S.D/etc but while I do not like Doxing, when your service is throwing people to the media and you are sitting with the black panthers and feeding millions of young black men poison that ‘white men will hunt you down and kill you’ – and people will get hurt/shot by people who believe they live in this world, the last thing Ryan should be worried about is a blog posting his info.

    The TH wouldn’t have the power they have without idiots like that causing a reason to scope out the truth. If I were related to george he’d be lucky if he weren’t in a river. He found the right family to exploit and try to ruin – peaceful people who have faith in this system and people. At least, for now, one of those 2 is worth believing in.

    Ryan is evil – so is Crump. It takes a special kind of person to take a 6’2 17 year old and turn him into the 10 year old in a wolverines uniform and say “This man hunted him down and shoot him – oh, i was wrong. Don’t get upset with me!”

    They are a team, Julison and Crump. This is what they do. I’m glad somebody called them out on it. Crump belongs in jail and deserves nothing but suffering. “A minor child, named dedee was on the phone” he states after suing for those 911 tapes.

    Here is a former minor child who, at the time, was that child and calls herself deedee:

    http://instagram.com/prettydedee_

    From Miami and knew Tray well. He created a false narrative and may have blood on his hands and Ryan helped. To hell with them all. And I say this as politely as I can because I respect Nettles and this blog. It’s one of the more polite groups and I understand if I need to apologize – I have no problem with that. But I have a special hatred for people like Ryan and Crump for reasons I will spare you all. I do not like liars/crooks. Period.

  20. *He created a false narrative from a basic search is what I meant to say. Unless she was the girl on the phone. Your call. Either way, he needs to be disbarred and I’ll refuse to believe that disgusting jack daniels drinking ‘just a teenager’ Rachel was the sole witness to those events unless she is hiding something. To not know anything about the 39 minutes Trayvon disappeared into the 4th dimension and not recalling the 5 minutes he stood out in the rain, during a trip to 711 she probably never knew about in April 2012, while the 3 shmoogles buy blunts and hide their faces.

    I wish this pro george community could go back to trying to find out ways to disbar crump and find out the truth but I understand why the beef exists and I hope it works out because both sides (here/tcth) have done a lot of good and I hope it continues. Ty for your time and, trust me, none of this is personal to any of you and I wouldn’t take it personally if I was given a time out. Ty for allowing me to post here so far.

    • Please feel free to express your opinions here. It’s ok to support the work done at CTH if you want.

      I agree that Ryan Julison is not as innocent as he just told Lee he was but if the quote the Lee said is true, Sundance totally crossed the line. He wished death on Ryan. He allowed to be posted his address.

      This again is quite hypocritical most especially after coming here and telling me a link that’s been live for over a year leads to his home. I don’t think it did but hey, I edited it.

      What Sundance has achieved here is making Lee sympathetic to Ryan Julison.

      I agree, GZ supporters have to stop being manipulated and divided into camps. We have a common goal and so far, we are achieving good results. More to come hopefully.

    • The Stranahan radio show has certaily been interesting from what I’m reading. There is no way that Ryan Julison was just sitting around listening to a Breitbart radio host show. He absolutely was alerted to the fact, which caused his call in to the program. I don’t believe anything that comes out of the mouth who was the architect of the Scheme Team’s narrative. I believe nothing that comes out of Ryan Julison’s mouth.

      Having said that there is a contingent of CTH supporters and commentors who were also willing to buy into Sundances’s “just trust me” narrative. His early work on the Scheme Team was fantastic. Sundance crossed the rubicon, or jumped the shark, when he startyed going after GZ’s legal team, obviously O’Mara as the main head on the platter he wanted delivered. For those that bought into the meme that O’Mara should have, and could have stopped the BGI, and the Julison false narrative, you are barking up the wrong tree haha. It wasn’t O’Mara’s problem to go after the entire BGI, the leftist media that bought the Julison narrative, or the false stories put out their by the Martin parent’s, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson etc. It was O’Mara’s job to free George from the railroading he was getting from the Gov., Atty Gen., and the only to willing prosecution that bought the Julison narrative lock stock and barrel.

      Those that bought the Sundance line of speculation and opinions have as much to answer for as those that stayed on the side of George, and what was best for him all along. Sundance is getting some well deserved criticizm, and it’s about damn time. At least Stranahan writes and talks under his own name which is more than can be said from the cowardly Sundance who is to cowardly to back his posts with his real identity. There are plenty that have gotten death threats and everything else, but who post articles that are read by the public under their own real name. Booo Hooo so Sundance has gotten death threats. So is he some kind of victim? I think that was Stranahan’s point.

      • What pissed Lee off what Sundance posted hoping for Julison to experience violence or death. Called him a murderer.

        I haven’t read it but if that’s true, I’m sure others realize that crossed a line and Lee wasn’t the first one to say it.

        Julison does have things to answer for and Sundance has made some of the adversaries sympathetic to Julison.

        Can’t you listen to the recording on the blog radio link? Just hit play, there is no video.

        Lee said he sent an email to Sundance and Ryan and invited them to participate in the show. Gave them a time to call in. No call from Sundance.

        • Lee Stranahan is a person in similar constitution to Joe Scarborough. Lee also had a previous relationship with Julison over the pigford story… they know eachother. Stranahan is a weird dude…. he claims Brietbart ideology – yet defends the Dream Defenders in the Tallahassee capitol. Stranahan also has said he wishes to kill Bill Whittle.

          http://minx.cc/?blog=86&post=327200#c17693801 @Stranahan: Seriously, if I see that Whittle asshole the conservative world may suffer another loss

          So first off, THERE is a sense of who you are talking about.

          I have no idea what the flip you keep saying about me threatening, or wishing threats against Julison. I wish you would back that up and stop repeating nonsense from the mouth of Stranahan. It never happened.

          Stranahan sent CTH an email at 12:32pm Eastern today – he never invited anyone on to his show. I’ll copy the entire content here:

          —–Original Message—–
          From: “Lee Stranahan”
          Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 12:32pm
          To: TheLastRefuge@reagan.com
          Subject: What is that article on Pigford / Trayvon connection

          You guys have done a lot of good work in the past.
          This article jumps the shark, completely.
          You’re not only factually incorrect about Julianson and the work he did on both cases — but you DOX him?
          You’re adopting the bullying of Anonymous.
          Worst of all, you’re doing it with Andrew Breitbart’s picture on the masthead.
          Andrew would have HATED this. He hated bullying.
          Please pull down that article.

          ————————————

          That’s the whole e-mail. See any invite there? Whatever. The man is a known liar.

          The problem he might have moving forward is he might just be exposed by us for who he is…. I have yet to decide – because I’m a little pissed and such decisions are better served cold.

          Regardless, I took the day off and did not log on to a computer until 5:00pm so I never even saw his flippin email. But I’m not stupid enough not to know a set-up. Obviously Julison called a conservative contact because the sunlight is burning him. Stranahan and Julison threw a quick quid-pro-quo plan together….. and voilà…

          Whatever. It’s just how they roll.

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