Home » Uncategorized » Open Thread – Oct. 15th

205 thoughts on “Open Thread – Oct. 15th”

      • There are few issues that will be put off. This why I do not pay attention anymore. We had the Obummercare, the Cliff, the shutdown, now the debt……. Sooner or later I am going to need a valium. And in the end it is all Gerrymandering!

  3. From last thread – Bori, I do agree with you that some people need to be institutionalized.

    Also, I had responded to one of your comments – do you know the answer to this, or does anyone else? I’ve always wondered.

    I asked MOM about the Ping Logs in the case, his response was that the GPS was not enabled the day TM was shot and ping logs were not conclusive enough.

    Didn’t MOM say once that the ping logs showed that TM was far away from the “7-11 to home path”, far enough that it would have taken a car to get there and back in those missing 40 minutes…? He never did anything with that info, but I’m sure he said something about that, didn’t he…? So in the italics above, was he saying the ping logs suggested certain things, but they’d need the GPS to validate it…? I wonder if at least they brought it up in DeeDee’s deposition and made her sweat a little….

    • Sorry, I missed your question, the answer is no. I got the impression that the ping logs data was inconclusive not worth getting into it. I do agree that it would have been interesting asking Miss Dee Dee about it but they sort avoid that lapse in time. IMO, the decision was made to concentrate on the time most relevant, I do remember West asking something about what happen between him leaving the 7-11 and the complex but didn’t Dee Dee say she was doing her hair or something like that.

      • I believe this was one of the main reasons that Mark O’Mara said he was focusing his arguments on the time frame of what occurred inside the Retreat at Twin Lakes. Not only would he risk the appearance of having “lost” some obscure point if the ping logs did not produce anything that could amount to anything relevant to Trayvon’s assault on George, but he risked alienating the jury if it left the impression that he was attacking Trayvon’s image. With Judge Nelson’s help, BDLR had effectively stonewalled the admission of any evidence that showed Trayvon’s true nature, so Mark would have no way to bolster anything learned about a trip with the “3 Stooges”.

        • LJP, that was the impression I got, there would be nothing to gain by pursuing this line of investigation. It sort of ironic that many in the media claim that the Defense put TM on trial but the opposite was true. Outside of the actions right before and during the altercation there was almost no mention of TM.

        • Remember also, MOM had to fight to even get weather conditions within a certain mile radius admitted as evidence from that night. His argument was that it showed visibility contraints, witness testimony on what they saw, interference in what they heard, it proved GZs perception of someone out and about was not a figment of his imagination.

          • I think it was Jenna Lauer who in a statement to police, said she was surprised to hear voices outside in that weather. It was raining pretty hard at the time. So there is another person besides George, who thought it odd to be out and about in that weather.

            • I am so glad MOM pushed for the weather reports. I forget if he did use them during trial though. I remember hearing him argue to submit it. Shows how one little thing makes a big difference to corroborate that is was fishy that someone would be hanging out in the rain.

  6. Trump funds Bondi as the AG considered a probe!

    New York’s A.G. had already filed suit, saying that Trump’s seminars — conducted there and in Florida — were little more than a “bait and switch” meant to separate customers from their money.

    So on Sept. 14, the Sentinel quoted a spokeswoman for Bondi who said that Florida’s attorney general was studying the New York lawsuit to see whether she wanted to take action here as well.

    Three days later, on Sept. 17, Trump’s foundation cut a $25,000 check to a committee associated with Bondi’s campaign.

    It was one of the largest checks that the “And Justice for All” committee has received.

    And it looks awfully fishy.

    Think about it. A prosecutor says she’s trying to decide whether to sue someone — and that someone suddenly gives her campaign war chest $25,000?

    Most prosecutors would be insulted.

    But I’m increasingly convinced Pam Bondi simply isn’t like most prosecutors.

    For Bondi, the pursuit of campaign cash trumps the pursuit of justice.

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/os-scott-maxwell-bondi-trump-20131015,0,691156.column

    WTF? The pursuit of Justice comes at a price & Donald Trump has more money than morals, who else is calling Bondi out?

    Appalling that Bondi, put off an execution last month, but raked in $ 140,000.00 from the event held that night for her fund raiser.

    • If true, THAT is good news. Nelson seemed to be a party to the mechanisms of Bernie de La Rionda from the very start. Also, are there any lists of exactly what those defense exhibits are? Further still… any news from the DOJ or Eric Holder on the federal “investigation”?

      • This is speculation but maybe since they deal with the sanctions hearing the exhibits prove there was indeed Brady violations that Nelson defered to after trial to determine if there were violations..Seems the State feels that since Nelson ruled on those exhibits she should decided if they were violations. Perhaps it is information the defense found on TMs phone that backs up Brady violations?
        What interests me more is why is the June 29th bond was hearing mentioned and what was sealed? Lester was Judge then. Could this be concerning Corys Probable Cause Affidavit, or the States collusion on the Pay Pal issue, or sealed records concerning Crumps part in an arrest?

        • Thanks Nettie. Gonna try to watch.
          I have a kitten who decided to befriend us today. I think one of them got hit by a car two days ago. It is calico like the cat we saw dead that is still laying in the road. So I do not think they have owners. Too old for a Mom., maybe 3 months old? But now it made friends and my kids are trying to make it a home on our porch! We have an older one who stops in every now and again too. Maybe that is the Mom?
          I am allergic so no inside furry pets for the kids. It is bad enough with the hamsters 😦

          • #9 is are composite photos of GZs injuries….that is what I caught so far but was not paying attention before that

        • Wow. He looks so thin. I got used to him so much larger. I believe he’s been starting to take the weight back off; I hope it’s not too tough for him.

    • I was wondering how she could be being she was moving to civil court. Lol the State is upset she will not be overseeing the sanctions it appears as well.

        • I can’t recall who, but one of the contributors here checked with the court about the sanctions hearing and learned the court hasn’t received a motion from O’Mara yet on it.

          Mr. O’Mara in August had said he would need 4 to 6 weeks to go through the entire trial and ensure everything he wanted addressed was included in the motion for sanctions.

          That should be filed anytime now and we’ve been watching the docket for signs of it but so far, no sign.

          • I was the one that check with the court. She promised she would e-mail me any change of status but until O’Mara fies something, it is just a waiting game.

            On a different subject, I check with Foundation Center, Grant.org and none of them list any of the TM non-profits but, as I think I mentioned in another post and the sites confirm the 990’s for the Foundation are only available 12 to 18 months after the end of the Foundation’s fiscal year and reporting. This means that any financial information will have to wait until after March of next year to become public.

            PS. Nettles did you changed something on the site, the recent comments no longer show on the upper left anymore?

    • The way the last 2 entries read, it seems to me like it was Judge Lester speaking. ? maybe I am wrong, but since it reflects that it up to Judge Nelson, that’s my guess. Sorry if already figured out. just catching up 🙂

  9. Thanks again to the Captain, here is the docket for the Kruidbos Case. It appears, Angela Corey has 3 lawyers fighting for her.

    Attorneys

    Name Address Type
    White, Wesley Forrest [redacted] Fernandina Beach, FL 320353134 Private Attorney
    Hodgerson, Vanessa Shea [redacted] Jacksonville, FL 322023656 Private Attorney
    Riegel, Jr Robert Gambrell [redacted] Jacksonville, FL 322023656 Private Attorney
    Hackett, Leonard Thomas [redacted] Jacksonville, FL 322166123 Private Attorney

     

    Dockets

    Line Count Effective Entered Description Image
    1 — 8/1/2013 8/1/2013
    COVER SHEET
    2 — 8/1/2013 8/1/2013
    COMPLAINT
    3 — 8/1/2013 8/1/2013
    AUTO NEGLIGENCE CASE
    4 — 8/1/2013 8/1/2013
    CASE FEES PAID: $401.00 ON RECEIPT NUMBER 1896776
    5 — 8/2/2013 8/5/2013
    SUMMONS ISSUED ANGELA B COREY
    6 — 8/2/2013 8/5/2013
    SUMMONS ISSUED FLORIDA DEPT OF FINANCIAL SERVICES-DIV OF RISK MGMNT
    7 — 8/2/2013 8/5/2013
    SUMMONS ISSUED DFS SERVICE OF PROCESS OFFICE
    8 — 8/5/2013 8/5/2013
    CASE FEES PAID: $30.00 ON RECEIPT NUMBER 1898200
    9 — 9/4/2013 9/5/2013
    NOTICE OF APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL LEN T. HACKETT, ESQ. FOR DEFENDANT
    10 — 9/4/2013 9/6/2013
    DESIGNATION OF CURRENT MAILING AND E-MAIL ADDRESS LEN T. HACKETT, ESQ. FOR DEFENDANT/JAXFILING@FLORIDA-LAW.COM
    11 — 10/2/2013 10/4/2013
    MOTION TO DISMISS COMPLAINT FOR DAMAGES FROM ANGELA B. COREY
    12 — 10/8/2013 10/8/2013
    STIPULATION FOR SUBSTITUTION OF COUNSEL ROBERT RIEGEL JR., VANESSA HODGERSON AND FOWLER WHITE BOGGS
    13 — 10/10/2013 10/14/2013
    ORDER ON SUBSTITUTION OF COUNSEL/ATT FOR DEFT

    https://core.duvalclerk.com
    Lawrence P. Haddock is the Judge for this case.

      • Do not know where you may have read it. But at the time of Coreys filing of immunity early Oct. White still was representing Ben. White even commented she was not above the law.

      • Nettles – you are correct, the “Captain” shared a link a few days ago where White ask for “substitution of counsel” in B Kruidbos case & the law firm that would be handling BK’s case was named.

        Since White was tangled up in the other law suit in which the female had a beef w/White as one of her complaints om her “wrongful termination suit,” she had several other complaints in addition to White but maybe White didn’t want to be tangled in 2 cases pertaining to Corey’s office, just speculating. That case bogged down when Brady Material was found by the Attorney that represented Corey. The Judge bitch slapped Corey & publicly humiliated her which was long overdue, Corey’s office will have to pay on that case due to their dishonesty but I haven’t read anything on it lately.

        • Is this what you and Nettie are talking about seeing?

          Case 16-2013-CA-007407-XXXX-MA
          Department Circuit Civil Division CV-G
          Case Status OPEN File Date 8/1/2013 12:10:44 PM
          Judge Name HADDOCK, LAWRENCE P.

          Parties
          Name / DOB / DL / ID # Party Type
          Race / Sex Address
          KRUIDBOS BERNARD ALBERT PLAINTIFF
          /
          ,
          COREY ANGELA B DEFENDANT
          /
          ,

          Attorneys
          Name Address Type
          White, Wesley Forrest [redacted]
          Fernandina Beach, FL 320353134 Private Attorney
          Hackett, Leonard Thomas [redacted]
          Jacksonville, FL 322166123 Private Attorney

          Fees
          Date Description Assessed Paid Balance
          08/05/2013 SUMMONS($10/ea) $10.00 $10.00 $0.00
          08/05/2013 SUMMONS($10/ea) $10.00 $10.00 $0.00
          08/01/2013 CIR/GENERALCIVIL 3/1/2012 $401.00 $401.00 $0.00
          08/05/2013 SUMMONS($10/ea) $10.00 $10.00 $0.00

          Dockets
          Line Count Effective
          Entered Description Image
          1 – 8/1/2013
          8/1/2013
          COVER SHEET
          2 – 8/1/2013
          8/1/2013
          COMPLAINT
          3 – 8/1/2013
          8/1/2013
          AUTO NEGLIGENCE CASE
          4 – 8/1/2013
          8/1/2013
          CASE FEES PAID: $401.00 ON RECEIPT NUMBER 1896776
          5 – 8/2/2013
          8/5/2013
          SUMMONS ISSUED ANGELA B COREY
          6 – 8/2/2013
          8/5/2013
          SUMMONS ISSUED FLORIDA DEPT OF FINANCIAL SERVICES-DIV OF RISK MGMNT
          7 – 8/2/2013
          8/5/2013
          SUMMONS ISSUED DFS SERVICE OF PROCESS OFFICE
          8 – 8/5/2013
          8/5/2013
          CASE FEES PAID: $30.00 ON RECEIPT NUMBER 1898200
          9 – 9/4/2013
          9/5/2013
          NOTICE OF APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL LEN T. HACKETT, ESQ. FOR DEFENDANT
          10 – 9/4/2013
          9/6/2013
          DESIGNATION OF CURRENT MAILING AND E-MAIL ADDRESS LEN T. HACKETT, ESQ. FOR DEFENDANT/JAXFILING@FLORIDA-LAW.COM
          11 – 10/2/2013
          10/4/2013
          MOTION TO DISMISS COMPLAINT FOR DAMAGES FROM ANGELA B. COREY
          12 – 10/8/2013
          10/8/2013
          STIPULATION FOR SUBSTITUTION OF COUNSEL ROBERT RIEGEL JR., VANESSA HODGERSON AND FOWLER WHITE BOGGS

        • Oh forget that I see Nettie has the updated one posted. Looks like White is asking to leave the case huh? So are all attys. asking to leave, even Coreys?

          • Okay. I figured it out. The stipulation on withdraw was given to opposing counsel and they did object, so the judge ordered the substitution. It is way past my bed time…..

    • OUTSTANDING information from the Captain, I didn’t see this when I commented below, but I am glad it was shared. I wonder why White is not representing BK anymore, I really liked his matter of fact opinions he shared in the media.

      It’s interesting that Corey just wanted to have this thrown out & have the public/Judge just take her word for it, this is COSTING her office a lot. THEN, she is in trouble in the other “wrongful termination” case in which she will pay, how much remains to be seen.

    • Was wondering how it would take before someone made a racial and gun issue. The next 2 paragraphs are telling though;

      “”Who are they accountable to? Who do they answer to?” asked Jackie Byers, executive director of the Black Organizing Project, an Oakland social justice group that has spoken out about disproportionate arrest rates for black youth. “Even within our public law enforcement agencies, we have a clear lack of accountability, transparency, and oversight. When we start privatizing these things, it becomes even more problematic.”

      “The fact that some of these guards have guns is especially alarming, she said. “Having a bunch of armed security officers paid for by neighborhood people who are coming from a place of fear — and who are carrying whatever racial and economic biases with them — should make everybody in Oakland afraid.”

      It seems to me that Mrs. Byers is the one with biases and afraid, of both the police and a private security force in local neiborhoods. But who is really afraid for? That those committing crimes might now go to her neighborhood?

      • The good news is revealed in the comments, plenty of folks, Democrats even, are not intimidated by the cop and gun haters, in fact, all the idiotic UCB professors who wrote about the GZ case on the school blog for academics were taken to task, rather mightily I might add. Sundance would have a hard time explaining that libs are both bright and independent minded just as some conservatives.

  11. CNN News Anchor Don Lemon has a twice-weekly gig providing commentary for the syndicated Tom Joyner Morning radio show. His most recent piece, aired yesterday, began with the words:

    Let’s talk about the truth…

    The promise of truth was followed by his interpretation of the Republican Party’s problems

    For that reason, and their inability to embrace the winds of change sweeping through our country, there will never be another Republican President in our generation. In our lifetime.

    So, I say as the party dominated by aging white Americans and some very vocal bigots, the Republican party no longer represents the changing demographics in this country.

    He went on to give his recommendation for the party’s future:

    Republican party, wake up before it is too late!

    You’re going the way of the Edsel. The wrong vehicle at the wrong time or in this case, the wrong party at the wrong time.

    Republicans, here’s the bottom line from those of us who are not watching from the forest.

    You are blinded by the Obama hate trees, fighting amongst yourselves, in a death spiral.

    http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/cnn-anchor-don-lemon-gop-blinded-obama-hate-trees#.Ul8IgUpm-0k.twitter

    • lol right, like people are wanting to elect another black president so that race baiting can continue to be the #1 political strategy lol Don Lemon needs to get out of his bubble….

    • It is so much easier for some to see the opposition to the President as a racial issue thereby ignoring the issues. Take the credit limit hike that the Democrats want so much but back when Bush Administration asked for a hike the President; then a Senator, and many in Congress called the need for a hike as a failure of leadership and voted against it, but now it is a sign of leadership to get one. Hypocritical much. Back then a raise in the credit limit would saddle future generations with tons of debt, now they have to do it for the children. But if you make a racial issue then you can shut-down avoid the debate or investigate a different point of view.

      • We all being manipulated by politics and ideology instead of being systemic educated on the complicated issues involved. Yesterday NPR’s Hockenberry, a capable journalist, had two state controllers explain how the shut down and possible debt default affects their budgeting. Needless to say, the complicated economics are much more serious than what we are hearing from either party in Washington. Tom Friedman had a good column a few days ago titled “kicking the can down the road”. I am pretty sure most Republicans assume Friedman is a Obama Democrat, and do not read him, yet he lays out the challenges on spending cuts to both parties. I am not interested in one ideology over the other, I am interested in what works. Some of you would call me a socialist for supporting health care for all, but in my judgement providing healthcare will do as much to alleviate poverty as education.
        I support a single payer system with cost controls, no more pay for service formulas to benefits doctors and insurance companies. So yes I think health care is a right in a civilized society and I am willing to pay for. That does not translate to defending Obamacare, which was the result of ideological compromise, much like the current debt debate which is mostly posturing, politics, and dishonesty. The government shut down was a total waste, and its impact was far more problematic than reported on and many Republicans will ever concede.

        • I agree with you ideology clouds good decision-making and it obscures problem or as Friedman says we kick them down the road. But looking for what works may require looking at what was working and how to fix, not necessarily reinventing it. The US Health Care system was the envy of the world, the kind of care that was available to everyone, for a minimal cost. It is why people with the means to do so would fly from all over the country to come get healthcare.

          Did some people not have health insurance, which is not the same as healthcare, sure. 30 million was the number kicked around but there were reasons some did not have health insurance and some had nothing to do with access. Many people feel that single payer is the solution, but it is?

          They point to countries around the world that do it, like Canada, England, Germany, etc. but here is the question why do they come here to pay for care if it is available for free in their countries. That is because of the quality of the care provided here was better that the free care they could receive at home.

          I had the unfortunate opportunity to parents, people from Russia, France, England, Bangladesh and Argentina a couple of years ago when my son almost died. I met all of them at the Ronald Reagan UCLA’s Mattel’s children’s Hospital while their kids were receiving life-saving care or operations. All but the Argentinian family, were extremely poor and had their villages and local charities pay for the care to save their kids. Their countries could not provide the care or do it in time for them.

          There were other minor fixes that would have achieved the same objective but ideology got in the way. You say that this was a compromise but what kind of compromise requires changing the rules and voting late at night on a strictly partisan basis 2 days before a new Senator could vote and stop it. This was strictly an opportunity that was too good to pass, and rather than work to a good solution, instead we got this boondoggle to deal with.

          Putting aside ideology, everyone knows that the country can not continue to rake up deficits at the rate it is doing it, indefinitely. The issue is now that nobody is really being honest about this or wants to make the hard decisions to fix it. If anything the shut-down has shown how much government in Washington is entwined in aspects of our life that it does not need to be and that is everyone’s fault not a Republican only or Democrat only issue.

  12. Saw this on FB and it made me laugh! Wanted to share:

    Learning to cuss….

    LEARNING TO CUSS A 6 year old and a 4 year old are raking the yard. The 6 year old asks, “You know what? I think it’s about time we started learning to cuss”. The 4 year old nods his head in approval. The 6 year old continues, “When we go in for breakfast, I’m gonna say something with hell and you say something with ass”. The 4 year old agrees with enthusiasm. When the mother walks into the kitchen and asks the 6 year old what he wants for breakfast, he replies, “Aw, hell, Mom, I guess I’ll have some Cheerios”. WHACK! He flies out of his chair, tumbles across the kitchen floor, gets up, and runs upstairs crying his eyes out, with his mother in hot pursuit, slapping his rear with every step. His mom locks him in his room and shouts, “You can stay there until I let you out!” She then comes back downstairs, looks at the 4 year old and asks with a stern voice, “And what do YOU want for breakfast, young man?” “I don’t know”, he blubbers, “but you can bet your ass it won’t be Cheerios”..

    • What a gd predictable mess she is. No real guilt and had to turn herself and him into victims of racism. Absolute garbage.

  14. Made this the other day using Adobe Audition. What is particularly infuriating is that with my rudimentary knowledge of this software I was able to prove without a doubt that Zimmerman never said Coons. If I could do it the experts in the AV departments of the MSM could absolutely do it but they just had to cling to coons to keep the saint trayvon was racially profiled narrative alive!

  15. As the GZ case showed us, civil rights organizations are not about racial equality any longer but about maintaining their influence.

    “The oral argument in the case was sad to watch as it underlined the decline of this nation’s heroic civil rights movement. At least parts of that movement have shifted from nondiscrimination to preference, from universality to particularity, and from a deep and abiding concern about class inequality to an almost dismissive attitude about its salience.”

    “Now the argument, advanced by the ACLU’s Mark Rosenbaum, was still ostensibly about equality but in a very different form. Outside the courtroom, Rosenbaum declaimed, “We fought a civil war to say all races should be treated equally,” but instead of taking this in a straightforward sense to mean that admissions officers should treat races equally, Rosenbaum meant, instead, we should all have the equal right to fight for preferences. Just as alumni can push for special preferences for their children, so should minority parents, Rosenbaum suggested. It did not seem to occur to him that another alternative would be to make both skin color and legacy status irrelevant to who gets ahead”

    “One of the great contributions of the civil rights movement was its strong commitment to civil rights for all Americans. The Civil Rights Act outlawed racial discrimination toward anyone, of any race; and the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution also was written in universal terms.”

    But now the argument is that the 14th Amendment was just about protecting against the white majority.

    – See more at: http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2013/10/the_terrible_fall_of_the_civil.html#sthash.IJIjxqth.dpuf

    Here is more from Commentary Magazine

    “But this piece of imaginative liberal legal manipulation passes neither the smell test nor one of rudimentary logic. Michigan’s position is that equality before the law when it comes to race is a fundamental value of law, and thus wrong in of itself — malum in se. As Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette, said “It’s fundamentally wrong to treat people differently on the color of their skin.”

    “He’s right. To claim that a legal provision that prohibits discrimination on the basis of race is discriminatory because it injures those who would benefit from such discrimination is not just a poor argument; it’s exactly the kind of legal knot that liberals must tie themselves up in to justify an indefensible policy.”

    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2013/10/14/is-racial-equality-unconstitutional-affirmative-action-scotus-michiga/

  16. Portland Oregon School (King Elementary) planning 10/18 “hoodie day” type event to show support for Trayvon Martin, and Sybrina Fulton, who will be keynote speaker at 10/19 symposium sponsored by Black Parent Initiative:

    http://www.kgw.com/news/Elementary-students-encouraged-to-wear-hoodies-for-Trayvon-228121191.html

    Are Portland area parents aware of the facts surrounding the true character of Trayvon Martin? I seriously doubt it. One way to present the facts is to contact the King School PTA members, as well as the area school board:

    PTA: trace.salmon@kingpta.org kenny.butler@kingpta.org ionka.mitchell@kingpta.org alesha.steward@kingpta.org

    School Board: radkins@pps.net mmorton@pps.net bobbie.regan@pps.net sbuel@pps.net pknowles@pps.net tkoehler@pps.net gbelisle@pps.net agarcia2013@pps.net

    Another way to approach this is to politely express your concerns via twitter to local School Reporter for the Oregonian, Nicole Dungca:

    @ndungca.

        • http://thebpi.org/

          My next call is to the sponsoring organization. The Supt did not even know about until the news stories. I did not press King elementary secretary, I will challenge the Black Parent Initiative instead.

          • Erin Hoover Barnett, Portland Schools Senior Communications Manager, 503-916-3385

            “It’s astounding to even think someone would introduce this to elementary kids being that it was a teenager who was killed,” said one father of a young child. “It’s just too much.”

            The school district disagrees. It supports King Elementary School.

            “This has been a very painful experience,” said Hoover Barnett. “Its created a dialogue that’s important in our country.”

            • King PTA member (Kenneth Butler) is denying that the PTA is sponsored flyers promoting the “Wear Your Hoody” day. Updates now say that Sybrina Fulton has cancelled her appearance, and will (instead) send a video to be played during the Saturday event. Also, the linked articles have been updated to say that the PTA did NOT sponsor “Wear Your Hoody Day”, and Mr Butler claims the entire thing was a miscommunication by one of the parents. Hmmmm Sounds like (once the cat was out of the bag) anyone in any official capacity is backpedaling about ever supporting this. Does this smell like a dead carp, or what?

              • I suspect Portland schools are highly decentralized with school site governance and politics rule. Having been in Butler shoes, I suspect the black parent advocacy group is responsible and took advantage of any and all communication systems they could.

          • One question I have: The flyer states:

            “Here at King we also know about dreams… ….are(sic) hopes are that we can take many pictures throughout the day and present them to her ($ybrina) at the symposium…”

            Now, since “parents” will not be AT the school *throughout the day*, and the school (itself) is not sponsoring the event, WHO is going to “take many pictures” or “present them to her”????

            Clearly, adults ARE involved, and MUST be either teachers, or school administrators.

            Simply said… the school secretary “blew you off”, exactly like the School Board member (Steve Buel) “blew me off” earlier today.

            They are avoiding public scrutiny by sending retractions to the local news reporters, hoping for “plausible deniability.” But, you can bet that there WILL be pictures taken at King Elementary School on Friday 10/18. I wonder if they will be posted on the BPI website?

      • Correct. The School is not sponsoring the Sat 10/19 event at which Sybrina Fulton will speak. THAT event is being presented by the Black Parent Initiative. With Sybrina Fulton speaking, it’s no stretch to believe that the message is one of how Trayvon was an unarmed teen who was murdered by GZ, blah blah blah. That’s perfectly fine. If the BPI wants to stage a self-serving “pity party” *outside of school grounds* that is their privilege.

        However, for parents to encourage children to wear hoodies as a show of support for Trayvon Martin, and to drag those children into a dialogue based on lies, is simply wrong.

        We (here) all know fully well that Trayvon Martin was a drug abuser who assaulted George Zimmerman with no provocation and no legal or moral justification.

        But, are the parents of other children at that school aware of the facts? And, does it serve the purpose of an “important dialogue” to *allow* students to express support for a person of such questionable character? What is the intended “takeaway” for these children?

        Frankly, it appears that the School, and School Board is allowing the BPI to perpetuate a lie to students there. What is the purpose? What will the result be? Will more children be encouraged to defy authority, lose respect for legal proceedings, and (ultimately) become victims themselves?

        • (Ignoring for a second the fact that TM was shot because he attacked someone and not because of the way he was dressed)

          I have to seriously question the wisdom and mindset of parents and educators who would encourage juveniles to dress in the exact same manner that ~they~ believe resulted in another juvenile getting shot…?!

          • Well, here’s the current status of communications regarding the “Hoodie Day”:

            The School district member who replied (Steve Buel) shuffled my concerns to the head (Lolenzo Poe–Urban League member) of their “diversity” office

            The PTA member who responded (Kenneth Butler) denied that the PTA was actually sponsoring “Hoodie Day” and asked me to not “add to the miscommunication” adding that a correction had been submitted to the local news.

            Updated news articles now say that the PTA did not sponsor it, and add that $ybrina Fulton has notified the BPI that she will not be attending, but will send a video, instead.

            The local Public Schools Reporter (Nicole Dungca) of “The Oregonian” made only one reply to a tweet, then fell silent

            RZ jr did not reply to tweets about this.

            And NO ONE has come out to officially state ANY DISAPPROVAL for the planned “Hoodie Day” or clearly say that is will not be allowed to proceed.

            My guess? The King School will proceed with the event, but claim that it was spontaneous and unsupported. All Ostriches will have their heads buried deep in the sand, and will complain vociferously if confronted with the truth.

        • the whole thing is disgusting.

          Sybrina needs to be held accountable as do thugs in hoodies. This week along at one of the world top university UCB 4 armed robberies reported, in all incidents suspects were black males in hoodies.
          These armed crimes happened inside the perimeters of the campus.

          I mentioned that the most recent murder in my hood was of gangster Jemaine Davis, brains blow out on Derby St 7pm. While the paramedic transported his body his family and friends organized for revenge. Within a hour an 8 year old girl at a sleep over was shot and killed when the Davis gangsters shot through the front door of the apt of one of their enemies. Thanks to the way liberals treat violent crime it does not seem possible to suppress gangs.

  18. Portland Oregon Area (Kin Elementary) school planning 10/18 “hoodie day” to show support for Sybrina Fulton’s keynote speech during 10/19 event. Contact local school PTA and school district board members to express your concerns! Also, contact Portland Public Schools reporter, Nicole Dungca. She has previously written investigative reports on King Elementary School.

    • The flyer for the event reads:

      “PTA is asking all King school student to wear your hoody in solidarity with Trayvon and his family”

      “Are hopes are that we can take many pictures throughout the day…”

      I’m not a grammar nazi, but, um… really? Really? Seriously?

      It should come as no surprise that this school was recently investigated for cheating to raise student test scores.

      http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Elementary-students-encouraged-to-wear-hoodies-for-Trayvon-228121191.html

      • Wow. I can’t believe that it is the PTA leadership who are actually promoting this event. I wonder how many parents are actually aware of what is happening? I suggest you contact Nicole Dungca of “The Oregonian”. She initially (this morning) expressed interest about this event. (Nicole is the reporter who primarily addresses topics related to the Portland Public Schools. Check out her twitter feed, where she posted her phone number and asked for calls in regards to this issue.

        (She has written about King Elementary School before, in regards to their declining test scores)

        And BTW… I just received an e-mail response from a King PTA Member (Kenneth Butler) who denies that the PTA is sponsoring the “Wear Your Hoody” event. I sent him a reply that linked to the article (showing the flyer) that nivico linked.

    • It should be noted, too, that the demographics of the school are 55% black / 30% Hispanic.

      So basically this PTA event will pit roughly one half of the K-8 student body against the other.

      Bad idea… even in my college courses where discussions about the case would be warranted and appropriate, this particular case has been avoided like the plague because it is so volatile and divisive.

      http://www.zillow.com/portland-or/schools/king-elementary-school-74723/

  20. Judge Perry: Escaped killers ‘had some help’!

    Chief Judge Belvin Perry’s signature was forged on a pair of fraudulent orders that FREED two Orlando-area killers — both lifers — from a North Florida lockup in an astounding paperwork prison break that has sent shock waves across Florida.

    Law-enforcement officials are hunting for Charles Bernard Walker and Joseph Ivan Jenkins, both 34, after they left the Franklin Correctional Institution in the Panhandle within two weeks of each other because of fabricated documents authorizing their release.

    Ninth Judicial Circuit Court officials said the phony paperwork contains the forged signatures of at least two judges and members of the State Attorney’s office — including Jeff Ashton, officials said.

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-killers-loose-orlando-florida-20131017,0,900122.story

    I really respect Chief Judge Belvin Perry, I bet this blew his mind as well as Jeff Ashton’s! Always a public hazard when convicted murderers walk out of jail. No doubt procedures will be changed after this across the State of Fla., Judge P mentions how available information is through the Sunshine Laws & documents on the internet.

    • “I strongly believe they had some help,” Perry told the Orlando Sentinel today. “It is unlikely [the documents] were produced by the inmates.”

      Well, Judge Perry, if they DIDN’T have help, there are a lot of questions that need to be answered, particularly: How did two lifers have unfettered access to the system to file these documents at the Orange County Courthouse, to begin with? What ELSE do they have free and open access to?

      And HERE’S a REAL shocker. This was NOT the first time Jenkins had tried this!:

      “Jenkins’ fake release order filed on Aug. 30 was the second attempt by the felon to game the system.

      The first try came in June 2011 when someone working on his behalf filed documents at the Orange County courthouse asking the court to reduce Jenkins’ sentence.”

      It seems that the courthouse and department of corrections are both starting to resemble a “Klown Kar” operation.

  22. Trayvon Martin’s dad fighting for ‘stand your ground’ repeal, report says

    Trayvon Martin’s father, Tracy Martin, was in the state capital fighting for the repeal of Florida’s “stand your ground” law, WFTV is reporting.

    He also took part in a panel Thursday titled “Stand Your Ground Law: Where Do We Go From Here?” with state Rep. Alan Williams, D-Tallahasee, state attorney Willie Meggs and public defender Nancy Daniels.

    Martin called for a repeal while other panelists suggested changes in the verbiage of the law, the news organization said.

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-stand-your-ground-repe-20131018,0,5730505.story

    Fla. always officers of non profits/foundations to draw salaries of $ 40,000.00 each, I assume both Sybina/Tracy are doing that which has allowed them to stay in our faces.

  23. bricuafudd – I was thinking about you last week & your unique investigative skills in uncovering the truth in things you write/care about on your blog. In the same week I read about 3 outrageous cases of abuse on Non profits ABUSE, even though there is a “watch dog group” that tries to bring to light the abuses & lies of some of the foundations, little is ever done NOR do the contributors seem to care.

    (1) the nut job Baldwin family, even though I like their acting, have established a foundation in their mother’s name for “breast cancer awareness,” they rec’d approximately $ 300,000.00 in donations & their sister DREW nearly the ENTIRE AMOUNT as her salary as the CEO of the foundation. It is a tax write off for Alec to donate to his mother’s foundation & helps his sister to draw a salary? If Alec had given her the money, it wouldn’t have been a tax write off for him, BUT, if he donates to charity/non profit, it is. 2) The past CEO of the New Yorker Magazine, runs the Daily Beast & is exiting the publication, Tina Brown, has been FORCED by humiliation to donate $ 750,000.00 from a non profit in which she started with another partner. Tina Brown’s non profit had donated ONLY a million dollars w/a war chest of $ 15 million dollars for “women’s issues,” the watch dog group was going to run a NEGATIVE story on the abuse WHEN Tina Brown decides to authorize $ 750,000.00 to be released to try to beat the negative story to press.. WHAT a scam, NOW she is leaving the Daily Beast to work full time on “women’s issues” establishing herself again, as the CEO.

    Not to be OUTDONE by anyone, the Clinton’s! The NY Times BEAT THEM DOWN & EXPOSED their bull chit much to dismay of Bill/Hillary, who are suspected to use monies from the Foundation for Hillary’s run for President as it is being reported & the establishment of her NEW OFFICES for her staff as their headquarters!

    From the NY Times article:

    Soon after the 10th anniversary of the foundation bearing his name, Bill Clinton met with a small group of aides and two lawyers from Simpson Thacher & Bartlett. Two weeks of interviews with Clinton Foundation executives and former employees had led the lawyers to some unsettling conclusions.

    The review echoed criticism of Mr. Clinton’s early years in the White House: For all of its successes, the Clinton Foundation had become a sprawling concern, supervised by a rotating board of old Clinton hands, vulnerable to distraction and threatened by conflicts of interest. It ran multimillion-dollar deficits for several years, despite vast amounts of money flowing in.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100231113/the-new-york-times-takes-down-the-clinton-foundation-this-could-be-devastating-for-bill-and-hillary/

    The NY Times EXPOSED the Clinton’s, BUT WHY do people CONTINUE to donate money to them?

    WHERE DID Chelsea Clinton get 10 million dollars to AFFORD an apartment in NY when she ONLY has held a part time job that didn’t last long on one of the morning shows? I ASSUME she draws her salary from the Clinton’s Global Initiative Foundation WHICH HAS just been renamed: “The Bill, Hillary, & Chelsea Clinton Global Initiative Foundation.” Chelsea’s husband promptly quit his job on Wall Street & stayed many months in Colorado skiing bringing humiliation to Bill/Hillary, but hey, he isn’t stupid, what a gravy train imo.

    Bill Clinton WHINED at a benefit for donations stating “Hillary NEEDED monies to pay off past campaign debts of $ 200,000.00” YET Chelsea is living in a 10 million dollar apartment in which there is no way on earth she could have earned the monies to purchase, it came from Bill/Hillary & PROBABLY their foundation.

    I am still trying to invest a little bit of money like Hillary did when BC was running for President in which she QUICKLY made over $ 100,000.00 in cattle futures. Go figure! It’s sad that although BC’s Global initiative has done so much good, it is OVER SHADOWED by the same behavior both Clinton’s shared even before BC became Governor of Arkansas.

    WHAT IF NON PROFITS just did the RIGHT THING & HELPED the people they claim as their objectives?

    • Art- Totally agree, non-profits have become big business while looking for information about the TM Foundations, I took a look at the Miami Foundation. They spend more than 15% of the grants on administrative expenses while the American Endowment Foundation which does the same thing as the Miami Foundation only spend 2% for administrative cost and expenses the rest goes to their objectives. According to the Miami Foundation 2012’s Form 990 the CEO and President get $274,145 in compensation the Vice-President got $152,574 plus another $20, 000 for retirement between them, but I thought they were limited by law to $40,000 in Florida? I’ll have to look into that.

  24. boricuafudd – when the Anthony’s set up the “Caylee Foundation,” Cindy’s “application for the foundation” & the officers she assigned to her board were made available on the internet through the Sunshine Laws, they were all Anthony Family members & her daughter in law & her family. That’s when we found out about the officers ability to draw salaries of $ 40,000.00 each yr. from an attorney that contributed at the blog I participated. As I recall, they didn’t anticipate getting a lot of monies, they took a few trips to Ohio, where they formally lived & handed out a few teddy bears from the Foundation, all expenses paid by the Caylee’s Foundation. When Dr. Phil deposited the 600,000.00 check, they immediately with drew all the monies out & closed the foundation, nothing got to the public.

    Bigger foundations obviously allow bigger salaries to be drawn as in the case of the Baldwin sister that drew nearly $ 300,000.00 from the mother’s breast cancer foundation as her salary.. A few years ago, Susan Komen’s sister got BUSTED as the CEO for drawing an appalling amount of money from the “Susan G. Komen Foundation,” she got demoted/exposed but they regrouped as they too suffered a back lash from the public.

    In the case of Bill Clinton’s Global Initiative, it seems that foundation got AUDITED after 10 yeas & that’s why the shady dealings came to light that the NY Times & others wrote about because it got exposed.

    It seems until those taking advantage get exposed, it’s business as usual for many foundations.

  25. EXCLUSIVE: Zimmerman Brother: Boycott Sharpton’s Advertisers
    by Ben Shapiro 18 Oct 2013, 10:09 AM PDT

    “Speaking exclusively with Breitbart News on Friday, Robert Zimmerman, brother of George Zimmerman, the man acquitted of murder in the shooting of black teenager Trayvon Martin, ripped into MSNBC’s Al Sharpton and called for advertisers to stop their support for Sharpton. Sharpton forwarded the false racial narrative that Zimmerman shot Martin because of his color. “There is perhaps no one more undeserving of the title ‘Reverend’ in the world than Al Sharpton,” Zimmerman said. “

    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2013/10/18/Exclusive-Zimmerman-bro

    • This was something I suggested months ago. But it’s not enough for a few people (here) to simply stop watching Sharpton on MSNBC, or to stop purchasing products “XYZ” advertised during his time slot. A *quiet* protest, by a select few will NOT produce any significant result. What would be far more effective is the establishment of an organized effort calling for boycotts of his advertisers products, hosted on websites dedicated solely for that purpose, and based on a wide variety of issues, not just Sharpton’s actions during the Zimmerman case. As RZ jr noted in the statement quoted on Breitbart, Sharpton’s racially based advocacy has extended over decades, in response to a wide variety of cases. And, the hosting of a single site, dedicated to a boycott of those advertisers will have no impact if it is not actively promoted on other blogs, promoted through press releases to media outlets, mentioned (and linked) in comments to news items, etc.

      • I am not in favor of advertiser boycotts.

        Let Sharpton’s show rise or fall on its merits.

        Whatever one thinks of Sharpton’s views, they are shared by a large constituency in the black community. If the majority of the black community voted Republican the way they vote Democrat nowadays, I suspect you could see Sharpton speaking at a DAR convention. 🙂

        Society benefits when social or political disagreements are contested in a free media and in a free election exclusive of boycotts and other pressure tactics.

        • I believe that as much as I dislike Sharpton, the 1st Amendment protects him just as boycotts are legitimate forms of protest, though rarely effective. The hypocrisy is what bothers me the most, as he can say things that are clearly racist and he gets away with it, while others say something ambiguous but can be construed as derogatory and all hell breaks loose.

            • Probably all of them. The Rainbow Coalition were the masters of the Shakedown, but and I can’t remember who it was did not bend at the request and boycotts and since then they have not been national boycotts calls by them since then.

              • Only this last summer Jackson was rattling his saber, threatening to call for a boycott of the entire state of Florida, calling it an “apartheid state.” At his beckon, several well known celebrities said they would refrain from touring in Florida. Sure, Jackson didn’t *formally* press for a boycott. But that’s the beauty of his refined shakedown scams. Now all he has to do is *mention* the word “boycott”, and the coffers of the CEF swell from corporate donations. And, did you notice that the FL legislature is now planning to hear recommendations to amend the SYG law, which is exactly what Jackson was railing for when he spoke to the “Dream Defenders”?

                • I know but the artist that said they were cancelling did not have anything scheduled in the state. For instance Jay Z and Justin Timberlake and others they went ahead with their shows.

                  All those calls for boycott in late July came to nothing, by August the subject was rarely even mentioned. Don’t get me wrong they still can be effective when directed at a more regionally specific target.

                  As for SYG, with all the negative and misleading attention the law got, it is no surprise that it would get attention from the Legislature, but the calls are for the repeal of the law, and that is not happening.

                • LetJusticePrevail – Some did formally call for boycotts, MLK Jr. was one that called for boycotts in Fla. but Dr. Alveda King, the niece of MLK, stated “she understood GZ’s verdict, there was reasonable doubt, she accepted the verdict, the jury had spoken” & she too questioned “who was paying those in Fla.” suggesting J Jackson & Sharpton were being paid BUT by whom?

                  When the handful of morons called for “boycotts in Fla., “I noticed many Politicians distancing themselves from the group & openly criticizing them calling them “irresponsible. hurting employers & employees trying to make a living in the State,” the Governor too stated he “wouldn’t call a special session for the dream defenders.” It appeared the Governor had done ALL he was going to do for the BGI/the TM agenda.

                  The dream defenders weren’t even covered by MEDIA at the Capitol after a few days of their protest! WHY? imo, the public didn’t give a rats ass that a group of college kids had nothing better to do than sit & complain about the INABILITY TO GET PIZZA after 5:00 pm brought in to the Capitol, the Governor had already stated he WASN’T giving in to their demands for the special session.

                  imo, a lot of the public has grown tired of the agenda of some ESPECIALLY when it effects their livelihood such as Timberlake/Jay Z’s ability to MAKE A BUCK off Fla., many have moved on to other causes. In time, Sybrina/Tracy will be a distant memory, I CAN’T WAIT!

        • “Society benefits when social or political disagreements are contested in a free media”

          Quite true. Could you please point out the MSNBC show that is dedicated to presenting counterpoints to Al Sharpton’s race baiting?

  26. Annette… will you please check to see if am still subscribed to comments on this thread and also subscribed to receive new threads.

    Looks like Yahoo is now failing to send me any notifications on the blog. When yahoo first made the recent changes in MAIL, most, but not all, notifications went straight to spam or to trash. Then ALL notifications abruptly stopped. Same thing has happened at other WP blogs, CTH, Dman, and all others.

    Is there any way you can find out if this has been mentioned by the folks at WP? Thank you..

    • Jordan, you aren’t a subscriber on this thread but you are listed as a follower to be alerted when new threads are posted. To follow a thread, you need to make a comment and check the box for email alerts on comments to the thread.

      I’ll email WordPress for some help. I don’t find them very responsive though, but one can try.

  27. I have done that on every comment for a long time. Look my comment. I subscribed on the comment as well as the others. I am doing this so let me know what happens.

    Notify me of follow-up comments via email

      • I have received nothing. Look at my comment here. It is when I first subscribed but I also not a message about this thread or the one before this.

        October 18, 2013 at 10:12 pm

        This is mind boggling.

        When do show that I first subscribed on this thread and the previous one?

    • Yes Jordan yahoo mail has been wacky doo since then for sure. Mine still go to spam . And I don’t really care for the way the emails stack now or the adv on top on new emails lol. Guess ya can tell they didn’t ask us for input huh 🙂

      • For several days, they all went to spam or to the trash. I went through all of them in spam and checked the box at top that none of them were spam. Now I receive nothing.

        How do most people follow a blog and keep up with the comments if they are made up-thread from the must current one at the bottom?

        • Jordan – I read the newer stuff at the bottom, and then I scroll up, pausing when I see comments more towards the right side of the page, sometimes when I see the “right-most” end of a “train”, even if it might not be all the way to the right. I do this quickly, looking at the last comment to see if it looks familiar. I also have a general idea of how many comments there are, so when I see how many are new since my last visit, if they’re not at the bottom know they’re up above. If it’s only a couple I probably won’t go hunting.

    • One of the weaknesses of these interviews is that a proper follow-up question is never asked, and, if answered, never aired

      What exactly does “socially illogical” mean in the context of this case and to Mr. Parks?

      Is “social logic” the preferred standard for Mr. Parks to the rule of law?

      .

  32. I know that British culture is being threatened by large groups of immigrants who don’t assimilate, but I didn’t realize they have the race-baiting problem we have. Isn’t it funny, people would be up in arms if large numbers of whites moved to African countries and started changing their cultures, but not a peep about preserving the culture of western countries.

  33. I followed a link to the article I’ve excerpted below, it points out something important to keep in mind when you hear how many people have signed up for Obamacare – it appears at this point it’s mostly the lower income folks who are being diverted to Medicaid/Medi-cal, not the people who would be signing up on the exchanges who will be paying the higher prices to finance the others.

    Washington State is Obamacare’s biggest success story so far. But it has only about 3,000 people actually enrolled in the private exchange plans. Nearly 90 percent of enrollees so far are going to Medicaid instead. Although it isn’t completely clear from their confusing presentation of the numbers, it appears they have as many as 25,000 exchange applicants in all, if you include people who have applied but haven’t paid. Even so, that’s half the number people have been bragging about from Washington. So even the best success story is perhaps less exciting than believed.

    http://www.conservativeintel.com/2013/10/18/are-they-signing-up-for-obamacare-or-for-medicaid#

    • lorac – I have read that the ACTUAL people that have committed/been accepted to purchase Obamacare, are sadly likely to be those that have debilitating long term illnesses, terminal illnesses, or cancer in which they couldn’t purchase insurance or had NO insurance before Obamacare. Think about it, if you had a terminal illness & NO insurance, this is a GREAT deal & you would sign up immediately, THAT’S what the reports are not showing imo, for a reason.

      Obama made available increased monies for Medicaid for 2-3 yrs. to increase the limit a person could have to qualify for Medicaid raising it to $ 12,000.00 or more in some states. My State, La. did NOT accept the monies as well as a few other States. In La., to qualify for Medicaid, you cannot have more than $ 2,000.00 to your name to qualify for Medicaid. IF Gov. Jindal had ACCEPTED the Federal monies now available from Obama to increase that limit for Medicaid, the Medicaid limit would have been approx. $ 12,000.00 in which MANY residents of La. would qualify. Many States did accept Obama’s increased Medicaid opportunity, MANY young people making less than $ 12,000.00 per yr. & work part time will qualify as well as unwed mothers w/children that work part time or not at all & low income families that are unemployed r can only work part time jobs will be able to qualify for medicaid..

      The CATCH IS: The monies were available from Obama for ONLY 2-3 years for his Medicaid increase, THEN the costs falls on the residents of La. r the residents of the States that DID accept the Medicaid monies & the residents would have to PAY for ALL the people on MEDICAID at the increased $ 12,000.00. La. is a poor state, high unemployment, low salaries, in the long run, it would have hurt our State more. The same will happen for all the States that took the increased Medicaid funding, they will receive HIGHER taxes in approx. 3 yrs. to pay for ALL the people forced onto the Medicaid rolls.

      NOW, Obama has to have hundreds of thousands of healthy young people to sign up for Obamacare, imo, many of those healthy young people may be unemployed, still in school, part time workers making less than $ 12,000.00 p/yr or opt to pay a penalty of 95 dollars the first year, WHAT A FREAKING MESS imo.

      • Oy. Well, California was already there before Obamacare, children qualify for Medi-cal, so if you’re the parent, you also qualify if they’re living in your home. The basic rule is under 21, over 64, or in between those ages if you’re a parent of children. I don’t remember the income requirements, but you can own a house, cars, etc. And illegals get restricted Medi-cal, which is free emergency care and pregnancy care. And of course their children will automatically be American citizens and on Medi-cal. Did I mention we have high taxes here? lol

        Oh, and Linda Ronstadt’s former boyfriend (our governor) recently announced that illegals can get CA drivers licenses, and our whole state is now a sanctuary state. They also just made it legal to practice law if you are illegal. So – why are we paying state or federal taxes, if there really isn’t any distinction between illegal and citizen, if there are no longer borders?

  34. Nettles, I believe you guys have governmental insurance up there…? Would you be open to discussing your experiences with it, and what other Canadian opinions there may be?

    Single payer makes me nervous, because I like the idea of multiple companies having to compete to give you the best value. They say that 85% of us already had insurance. I think they should have worked out a solution for that 15%, instead of setting up a situation where a lot of employers are dumping their insurance so the employees have to now go to Obamacare. I just read that UPS is dumping its coverage for spouses of employees. Why do that, and make their “pool” smaller? The employee was paying the premiums for the spouse, just as if it were another employee.

    In other words, I think they should have gone for health CARE reform rather than health INSURANCE reform. They could have done SOME health INSURANCE reform, fixed problem areas, like letting people buy across state lines, put a cap on malpractice suits so MDs aren’t paying more every year for malpractice insurance than they paid for their entire medical school tuition, etc. MDs were already dropping Medicare patients before Obamacare because the reimbursement kept being cut, and now it’s going to get worse. They’re getting everyone “insurance” but there aren’t going to be enough MDs, especially not MDs who will take Medi-cal. Even right now there aren’t enough MDs who will take Medi-cal (oh, sorry, insert Medicaid, I’m in CA and used to hearing Medi-cal).

    Government is never considered to be efficient, timely, or cost-effective. But what we are seeing now has got to get the prize for incompetence. They have been warned all along the way that they were missing their deadlines and wouldn’t have everything ready for rollout, but they kept refusing to push back the start date. And I can’t believe they hired a company to do the website that got fired by Canada for not getting THEIR website done on time, and they didn’t even start working on the website until 6 months ago. People should be fired for this. Health care organizations have been making big changes for the last couple of years in preparation*, and the government itself couldn’t even be bothered to get it done???

    *things that would be mandated by the new law, as well as trying to devise programs to help them get paid – for instance, right now there are some illnesses that the hospital won’t get paid to treat if the person returns to the hospital within 30 days (and in the future it will include many more diagnoses). People generally return to the hospital because of noncompliance – not taking their meds, not keeping their wounds or incisions clean, not going to follow up appointments at their clinic, etc. So hospitals have had to develop and pay for programs, such as having people go into the home to check on them, making follow up appointments for them, transporting them to those appointments (they can get to the grocery store, they can get to the fair, they can get to the tavern, but they can’t get to the neighborhood clinic, go figure). So hospitals are becoming less about medicine, and more about having to do things for people which they can and should be doing for themselves. I guess our country is no longer about teaching people how to fish, it’s about doing their fishing for them. Be ready for those extra costs to be showing up in your charges soon, especially if that new law starts affecting MDs in private practice, not just in hospitals.

    • Also, in regards to the uninsured – when someone goes to a hospital, the business office starts either a Medi-cal or county insurance application for them. But it’s not complete until the person turns in certain documentation (birth certificate and documents which show they are low income – bank statements, pay stubs, etc). Suffice it to say, many do not follow up. They don’t care because no one will make them pay the bill, they’re lazy, they have hidden money they don’t want found, they’re illegal aliens (got a few of those here in SoCal) – a bunch of various reasons that lead people to CHOOSE not to have health insurance. And for this we had to change everything? For those who truly want insurance but can’t afford it we could have tackled health CARE reform to get prices lower (they’re VERY inflated in hospitals – if you ever go, ask for an itemized bill – see what even a bandaid or one Tylenol costs). Everything a patient needs is in a giant vending machine – even tissues – and the RN has to input the patient’s name to get the item, and the “cost” is sent right to the patient’s bill. I understand that there is overhead that has to be taken care of, but prices are VERY inflated. I can’t wait to see what the government (remember the $50 hammers? – 30 years later they’re probably charging $150!) starts charging for things.

    • Health Care in Canada is publicly funded. Each province has its own plan. I can tell you how it works in my province, Ontario.

      Everyone who is a primary resident of Ontario, has to physically lived in Ontario for at least 153 days of the year and after a 3 month waiting period, will be issued a photographed health card.

      When you go to a doctor, you have to present your card to be swiped, otherwise you will have to pay for the visit.

      Doctors are paid by the government. Funding comes from a 1.95% payroll tax on all employers and effective July 1, 2004, a health care premium tax was imposed on our individual income tax. Anyone who earns under $20,000 is exempt. At $21,000 a person would pay $60/yr. and it goes up with your income level. I pay $750 a year and the maximum paid is by those who earn in excess of $200,600 per year and they pay $900 per year.

      The financial statements on how these premiums were spent are issued each year. The focus in Ontario is “care” and “prevention”.

      I have heard of Canadians from my province, opting to go to the United States to get elective surgeries faster. As everyone is covered, waiting lists for some non-essential services can take a while.

      If its a life-threatening issue, I have heard of no problems. From my personal experience, I was in a specialists office in Toronto on August 17th and he took a piece of my tongue to be tested. I was told I’d be called to have an MRI done. I got a call on August 19th to have an MRI on August 20th at 10:30pm at night. When I went to my appointment, there was a woman there very angry that her appointment for her to have her test on her ankle was a 9 month waiting period. The cancer hospital that we were at and was doing the test, was so up-to-date that they were doing these tests for people who needed the exam for other reasons than cancer. I didn’t tell the woman, I only learned 2 days ago I needed an MRI and there I was getting it.

      What I didn’t know at the time was my doctor knew from the sample he’d taken, I had cancer again. The MRI was needed to map the surgery. I was scheduled for surgery on Sept. 12th. It took 40 medical personnel and I was on the operating table for 9 hours. I have no idea how much that cost the system, but I imagine a pretty penny.

      My cancer specialist travels around the world, teaching other doctors about mouth cancer. He always brings students here to intern and learn for a year or two at a time.

      Whenever I see him, he usually has about 10 students in tow and one “fellow” who is his right-hand.

      I’m ok with paying my premium and I love that everyone can go to a doctor here without worrying about the cost.

      Some employers will offer employees insurance for their prescription drug costs and dental services or extended health care (eye glasses, physiotherapy, etc.). Depending on the coverage, this can be purchased by the employer and employee or in rare cases, the employer pays all the cost of this benefit. We can buy our own insurance from various insurance companies who offer it. In my case, I get that insurance through my employer’s plan and it’s part of my remuneration package. For my mother who didn’t have an employer, I bought private insurance for her up until she turned 65. Now the government “Old Age Security” programs covers all her prescriptions so she pays $2.00 for each one no matter what it’s for.

      I saw some remarks from U.S. politicians about Canada’s health care system and the government being in the room with patients. That has not been my experience. What is the best course for my recovery is between me and my doctor.

      The only time in my 50 years I’ve ever been reminded the government is there is the income tax premium that got instituted in 2004. That brought $3 billion into the system to ensure everyone kept coverage and I’m ok with that.

      It still isn’t perfect here, but we keep working at it. At times, we have a conservative leading the province and at other times we have a liberal leading the province. Currently, the liberals are in charge in Ontario and the conservatives are in charge of the country.

      I like it that way, makes the middle ground where most things land.

      • At $21,000 a person would pay $60/yr. and it goes up with your income level. I pay $750 a year and the maximum paid is by those who earn in excess of $200,600 per year and they pay $900 per year.

        Wow, way lower prices than Obamacare. For people over 50, in some states they’re having to pay around $500 a MONTH, that’s for the cheapest “bronze” plan, and with a $5,000 deductible. But it was written with the help of the pharmaceutical and insurance companies, and passed by legislators and an “on the sidelines” president who didn’t read it…. It sounds like your country was able to divorce itself from the special interests.

        You said employers pay into it – are employers, no matter how small, mandated? If not, what happens with someone who makes over $20,000 but no employer chipping in? Do people have to be a citizen? What if it’s not life threatening, but an emergency, like a broken bone? Are they able to get help quickly? Is there an extra charge for the emergency room?

        What about frequent flyers? I’m thinking of people, sometimes homeless, who get found down drunk by the paramedics several times a month and are admitted to the hospital for detoxing, chronic pancreatitis, eventually for Wernickes then Korsakoffs (and then have to be permanently custodially housed at a nursing home) etc – I’m assuming their income level entitles them to free care, but has Canada been successful in trying to address this? Do you have people there who refuse to mae appts at clinics, preferring the “quicker” emergeny room

        • No you don’t have to be a citizen. There are a number of immigrants who qualify as long as their primary address is in Ontario and they are physically located here at least 153 days of the year.

          Emergency room visits are covered using our cards. If we don’t have a card, we’ll receive an invoice, just like a doctor’s appt. at any clinic.

          All employers pay a 1.95% of payroll tax on their salaries. There is a $250,000 exemption and once it gets over that you pay 1.95% health tax.

          Here is an article about Doctor’s pay. On average they get paid $307K/yr of which they have to pay operating expenses out of. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/how-much-are-canadian-doctors-paid/article7750697/

          One challenge most large cities are trying to overcome, is the congestion of our emergency rooms. Too many people go there with flu-like symptoms because they haven’t got a family doctor or walk-in clinics are closed.

          New for the last few years is a telephone number we can call to speak with a nurse about a medical issue and they will advise over the phone and direct us where to go for the best help..doctor’s office, emergency room or what to do at home to get relief. That is showing some signs of success in reducing waiting times.

          The only problems I hear are the elective surgeries that wait times are far too long so people go elsewhere.

          If I had an emergency in Saskatchewan when visiting family, I’d show my Ontario Health Card and they would bill the Ontario Health Care system for reimbursement. My family in Saskatchewan are not taxed on their income for the system. I’m not sure how that province funds the system. I know each province gets federal help to fund the system as well and the government controls the price of drugs, helping keep them affordable.

      • I’m glad you mentioned things in Canada because there are things that often get missed in the conversation when making comparisons that should be considered.

        The population of Canada 34 million is less than that of our largest state California 38 million. 44 million people in the states where on Food Stamps, alone. The amount of people receiving assistance in the US more than double Canada’s 5.1% of the population, all this means that the burden on our coffers are strained and this does not include retired on SS or the 10 million on disability.

        So that creates the first problem when people tried to compare other countries to the US because we are not comparing apples to apples. Another issue that is apparent to anyone that has traveled outside the US to Europe or other countries, things that we take for granted or in other words our standard of living for the middle class or even the lower classes is greater than that of other countries.

        Our wealth has convinced many that a; we can continue to fund the richest poor people in the world b; continue to spend money we do not have and rack up our debt indefinitely c; add more social programs that we can’t afford. It is one thing for a US State to form a program that will pay for only their citizens as Mass. and California had done and another mandating states that can ill afford it do the same.

        Smaller countries are able to do things that in the US are more complicated due to our size, standard of living and large welfare state to begin with, among other things.

        • boricuafudd – you make many good points in your comment, I didn’t realize Canada had only 34 million people, a good comparison to California w/38 million & one of the most liberal states. I can see where Canada could manage their healthcare being so small, but I have read criticism from some that live in Canada that don’t like the system or the system is viewed as a negative compared to our healthcare system. I too have read that American’s living near the borders of Canada would go to Canada to buy their prescriptions because they were so much cheaper., I don’t know if this still goes on or is allowed. No doubt that health care is a “runaway train” in our country but it seems almost impossible at this point to reel it back in. One thing that is for sure, NO ONE will be turned away that needs emergency treatment from any hospital whether they have insurance or not, that too includes “illegals” in this county that don’t speak English & have babies that are delivered in our hospitals, all for free. Where does this leave all the “illegals” without insurance?

          My husband was a physician, he is now deceased but yrs. ago when Bill/Hillary Clinton wanted to “control doctors” when they made a failed PUSH over healthcare, Doctors threatened to retire or quit practicing & stated they would never be controlled by politicians. We live in a free society, we are not socialist, so Dr.’s imo, will always control their own practices, privately or in the hospital, if they choose. Physicians now can choose NOT to see “medicaid” patients, my Internal Medicine Physician is one that doesn’t accept Medicaid, she told me that Medicaid reimbursement pays less than her cost/overhead, so she opts not to be bothered w/it. At some State Hospitals, some Dr.’s opt to be employed by the hospital, they teach classes to med students as well as see patients & don’t have to bother w/the overhead of a private practice/office.

          When the boomers start retiring, there will be so many less paying into the system that supports so many entitlement programs, my head could explode thinking about the future of how all these programs will survive.

        • The population of Canada 34 million is less than that of our largest state California 38 million

          Oh my goodness – no wonder it feels so crowded lol I wonder if that number includes even the illegal aliens….

          • lorac1 – LOL, I was personally shocked, I have never thought of the population of Canada & it seems so small when compared to California, or, just one State.

            I don’t know whats going to happen w/the illegal alien situation, there has always been a way to enter the US legally, many just don’t want to be bothered w/legalities. Zuckerberg, who is a billionaire, is supposed to develop a forum on illegals w/the use of the internet, he stated “the importance of engineers from Mexico that could benefit the US.” imo, it seems if engineers were educated in Mexico, they could easily navigate entering the US legally if they could speak English.

            I read Obama is going to address guns/illegals next, I just wish he’d straighten out the “cluster” that’s been created by Obamacare.

            • Art- They are also not shy about using the wealth obtain from their natural resources to further the good of the nation. Something we need to work on.

              You mentioned the immigration issue, from Mexico but is not the engineers that want to come to US, they usually if they have a job are sponsored by the companies that hire them and help them gain their status. The problem is that a large proportion of those that come are the uneducated, the poorest that require the most assistance. The educated and middle to upper middle class do well in Mexico and don’t need to come here. This is vestige of the Spanish colonial times that still persist is much of Latin America, where there is little upward mobility for those not related by blood, marriage or have enough to bribe other to get an opportunity to move up. The caste system is very much a part of life.

              • boricuafudd – I agree w/your comment about the engineers but it was Zuckerberg’s statement of “wanting to pave the way for engineers from Mexico” which was ridiculous & uninformed. He is supposed to be eccentric, although he has billions of dollars from the internet, he doesn’t even leave tips when he has dinner because he is too cheap it is widely reported. I am surprised he has adopted this as his cause.

                I agree it is the “uneducated” that consistently enter the country undocumented, many unable to speak English or ever bother learning it.

                • I read that but he is referring to mostly to those that came to the US as children and are educated here but still here. There is also a reason, though you won’t get him to say it, and that is that foreign workers are paid less, many times the language is used as a excuse, but the fact remains. Another reason is that many engineers from other countries return to their countries often to start foreign operations for the US companies they worked for.

                  I am sure there may be some altruistic reasons for him as well, but remember this is the guy that bought the properties around his to keep out others and one that is in need of good PR. As many other rich pretend to be Progressives this initiatives get good PR and separates them from the evil Capitalist right-wingers even if they are one themselves.

  35. From comment at His44

    http://www.hillaryis44.org/2013/10/15/if-republicans-knew-how-to-play-poker/#comment-421718

    BEYOND ‘GLITCHES’: Obamacare Nightmare Just Beginning

    “Train wreck.” “Fundamentally flawed.” “Not ready for primetime.” This is the rollout of Obamacare.

    Constant “glitches” keep people from logging into the exchanges. Humiliating live video of reporters normally favorable to Obamacare simply giving up in frustration because they cannot sign up. Consumers who are lucky enough to get through the system are stunned to learn that their premiums have skyrocketed by thousands of dollars. One Pennsylvania mother says that she can either pay her increased premiums or pay for her kids to eat, but she can’t do both.

    Extremely personal information has already leaked from the system in Minnesota. Software security experts from McAfee predict millions of identity theft victims. And one of the healthcare exchanges was forced to acknowledge that information collected from patients will be shared with law enforcement.

    Tom Bevan at RealClearPolitics wondered why Kathleen Sebelius still has a job. Jon Stewart invited her onto The Daily Show and mocked that he could “download every movie ever made” before she could log onto her own website. Her home state senator called for her to resign for “gross incompetence,” as exactly “zero” residents of Kansas were able to successfully enroll in the program.

    The rollout has been such a nightmare that it is abundantly clear now that members of Congress really did not, as then-Speaker Pelosi admitted, even read the Obamacare bill before they passed it. In fact, the program’s launch has been such an unimaginable disaster that it raises an alarming new question that would have been unthinkable amid the exaggerated claims of health utopia from three years ago: Did President Obama even read this legislation before he signed it into law?

    This is the single most complex piece of legislation in U.S. history, and we citizen-patients have a right to know. Did anyone in the notoriously cozy establishment Washington press corps even ask him this basic question?

    Obamacare is a disaster and the American people know it. Republicans have never had a more teachable moment than the one they have now, between the shutdown of the government and the disastrous rollout of Obamacare.

    Which begs the question: where are the Republicans anyway?

    I know the Republican establishment never wanted a shutdown fight over Obamacare. But this is a fight we must win. Where is Minority Leader Mitch McConnell? Where is the RNC? Why aren’t Republicans telling the very real human stories of people losing their jobs and their doctors because of Obamacare? The president guaranteed that by 2013 the average family would see premiums reduced by $2,500. In reality, the average family has seen their premiums jacked up by $2,900, an eye-popping $5,400 miscalculation. What other predictions will prove to be horribly off?

    Why don’t Republicans have a strategy to hammer this message every day?

    Some see Obamacare fall on its face right out of the gate, but I see a real danger here. We cannot just sit back and hope these early glitches will drive Obamacare away. We have to make the American people understand what this bill is about to do to them, so they stand up and demand repeal.

    When this debate began, President Obama guaranteed Americans that if we like our current insurance policies, we can keep them. If we like our current doctors, we can stay with them.

    Since then, millions have been kicked off their company insurance. More than 750,000 New Jersey residents have been notified that their former policies no longer meet new government mandates and will be discontinued. Thousands more have seen hours reduced and their coverage evaporate, as employers struggle to deal with incomprehensible new federal rules. Most alarmingly, almost one-third of doctors report their unwillingness to accept patients from newly expanded governmental programs.

    Meanwhile, Obamacare supporters continue to call it “universal” coverage. And the media is totally complicit.

    The fact is, the massive new bureaucracy will extend coverage to only 27 million of the 56 million uninsured under current official government projections for 2020. Ultimately, Washington is going to take over 1/6 of our economy to try to fix less than half of the total uninsured problem. This is madness.

    Most nefarious of all is that this entire European socialist centralized scheme does what massive bureaucracies always do: hurt young people and punish healthy behavior while rewarding reckless people and bankrolling unhealthy behavior. Today, a truly terrifying concept unspools as we watch the administration punish Americans across the country by unnecessarily barricading national parks and veterans’ memorials to make certain people “feel the pain” of the government shutdown.

    To quote a rural Nebraska pharmacist I met this past week: “What will these people do in the next government shutdown when they are also in control of every aspect of our healthcare? Withhold medication that people need? Postpone surgeries? Close emergency rooms?”

    As absurd as this sounds today, a whole lot of absurd things have become reality under President Obama.

    This is why I am running for U.S. Senate. Unlike Congress, and perhaps unlike even President Obama, I have read Obamacare’s 2,300 pages. I have studied it carefully and understand it.

    snip…the rest is about his run for the senate

  38. According to wordpress, today is my anniversary for signing up for the blog. It was on October 20, 2012 that the treehouse required I have a wordpress account in order to post.

    Happy 1st Anniversary to what became our blog! 🙂

  39. When my brother and his wife were in town we drove to Little Rock to let my Sis in Law see some sights on way to Hot Springs.. We stopped an ate at a Deli I LOVE. They had a sign on door that made us all look twice and laugh and give thumbs up. Just thought about it again and wanted to google and see if there were any other who posted such. IIRC, there was a bill or whatever called where now legal to carry in churches in AR. (I remb big yapping going on from both sides) But check out this lol found video AND the area of town that we stopped to eat, good thinking 🙂
    http://www.guns.com/2013/06/13/ar-sandwich-shop-stirs-controversy-with-firearms-welcome-sign-video/

  40. Sorry to be a pain, but it is killing me to not get email notifications. Did you get a response from WP? As of right now, do you know if I am subscribed to this thread?

  41. Nettles – no news of GZ is great news since he can’t catch a positive break in the media, not even helping those in an accident in the over turned car leading MOM to say, “should GZ have stopped to help? I don’t know” when responding to the negative press GZ rec’d instead of the KUDOS he deserved. I thought it was outrageous some bloggers suggested “GZ stopped because they were white.” Some will NEVER be convinced race has NOTHING to do w/the shooting/tragedy.

    I hope GZ is well & trying to get his life in order. No word/news conferences from SZ or her nut job attorney but hey the days not over LOL. Hopefully SZ has too decided to stay out of the news & out of our faces.

    I wonder if GZ has gotten a divorce attorney & if the divorce is moving forward so he can at least close that chapter in his life. If he responded to SZ’s divorce papers through an attorney, it would seem it would be reported in the MEDIA like SZ’s papers were reported, via Sunshine Law allowing it. Since the couple thankfully had no children, it seems it would move smoothly but that didn’t happen.

    I certainly had empathy for RZ Jr.’s comment on sitting w/his grand mother w/Alzehemier’s, I lost my mom 2 yrs. ago to the disease, I took care of her until she died, a horrible disease that robs our loved one’s of their minds, their ability to even speak at the end of their lives or even know their loved ones. Prayers to the family.

  43. Here is an example of “confirmation bias” which causes so many reporters to seek out that which only points to their biases. From Legal Insurrection;

    “A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.”

    “That quote, erroneously and ironically attributed to Mark Twain, is reflected in a false accusation of racism spread recently regarding Samuel J. Wurzelbacher, a/k/a “Joe the Plumber.”
    Wurzelbacher is hardly the household name he was back in the 2008 campaign, when he asked Obama some difficult questions and complained about government regulation during an Obama campaign stop.
    For the unforgiveable sin of saying something negative about Obama, Wurzelbacher immediately came under attack on a scale seen by few, including having government employees illegally search Ohio records trying to dig up dirt on him.
    While Wurzelbacher ran unsuccessfully for Congress in 2012, he hardly is a central political figure. But the urge to get him and demonize him lives on in the left blogosphere and media.”

    What did Joe do, he cross posted a blog from the Blacksphere written by Kevin Jackson titlled “America needs a White Republican President”, now Kevin Jackson is a black Conservative this is what he had to say;

    “In the pre-black president era, criticizing the president was simply the American thing to do. An exercise of one’s First Amendment right. Criticism had nothing to do with color, because there had never been a black president, or at least one whom people recognized as black.
    So to criticize the president meant that you didn’t like his policies.
    The election of a recognized black president was not supposed to change anything. In fact, it was supposed to (1) ease any perceived racial tensions, and (2) allow the government to focus on legislating without race. So America would be more free than ever to discuss the issues.
    Not the case. And that is why having a white Republican president is best for the country.
    Consider that nobody is ever accused of being racist for disagreeing with white presidents. Mexicans disagreed with most white Republican presidents over America’s immigration policy. Many deranged Mexicans believe we should open the country up to them, some saying that much of America belongs to Mexico anyway. They are not called racists.”

    Read more at http://theblacksphere.net/2013/10/america-needs-white-republican-president/#Q4ldxYEFcZKKeQKX.99

    Jackson concludes with this statement;

    “I long for the days of a white president, because under white presidents, at least black people had pride. Liberals have stolen pride from blacks, and they have no intention of giving it back.
    At least if we had a white president, black people might have a shot of regaining a modicum of respect.

    Read the whole thing it is not long but bring up good points that came into play during the GZ case. Anyhow Joe the Plumber cross posted the post on his own blog and before long the words on the post where being attributed to him, and used as proof that the Tea Party was just a bunch of racist. It was picked up by the lefty blog Crooks and Liars, Political Wire and Huffington Post all attributing the words to Joe the Plumber and accusing him and by extension the Tea Party of racism. Only the Huffpo, admit its mistake and retracted the story but the damage is done hardly anyone ever read retractions. Just like the GZ case by the time that word got out that GZ was not racist, it was immaterial he was branded one anyway.

    You can read the rest here: http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/10/anatomy-of-how-a-racism-lie-spread-half-way-around-the-world/

  44. Gag Order Help

    A year ago tonight, I posted the email from the defense to my facebook friend Carole. On October 22nd, the dog pound tweeted it out that the defense was asking racists for help. http://twitpic.com/b6l2c2 Note, BigBoi’s tweet was not a screen cap of the message posted.

    A year ago George Zimmerman likely wanted to strangle me. 🙂

  48. Message i received on my facebook account: Mark XXXXXXXXX
    I taught HS students like Treyvon Martin for 10 years. I was assaulted 11 times by students in my classroom. Without asking me what happened, principals told me I was at fault and “we have no criminals in our school”. I learned to call 911 from my room rather than send them to the office. Afterwards, principals accused me of racism, my evaluations dropped, and an open campaign to try to fire me started. I sued for harassment and went to another school for the gifted and talented: I was never assaulted again. I know how Mr Zimmerman felt and have experienced the fear of an assault. But I also know how it is to have the person who assaulted me considered innocent, free of any culpability. I also know how it is to be assumed guilty and blamed for the assaults on me. If you are not black and assaulted by a black youth, you are a racist in need of punishment. I hope that the jury gives Mr Zimmerman justice and find him innocent.

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