What happened in the early morning hours of Saturday, November 2nd that resulted in the death of 19 year old Renisha Marie McBride?
We know she was in a car accident at approximately 1:00 a.m. and decided not to remain at the scene. At 1:20 of this video found in this link, a witness was interviewed who spoke to her and tried to convince her to stay, he had called an ambulance and police for assistance. Renisha was heard by a neighbor at the crash site saying she just wanted to go home and she left. The white Ford Taurus is hers and she appears to have hit the rear left side of a parked black car with the right side of the car.
According to the Detroit News, “There was an entrance shotgun wound to the face, with no evidence of close range discharge of a firearm noted on the skin surrounding this wound,” reads the report by Wayne County Assistant Medical Examiner Kilak Kesha, who ruled McBride’s death a homicide.
Toxicology results for the autopsy are pending.
According to the autopsy report, McBride’s clothing was wet. The young woman, who is described in the report as 5’4,’’ was wearing a blue jacket, black undershirt, black pants and a pair of white socks. There was no mention of shoes.”
Her home going was held on Thursday, Nov. 7th and a group of family supporters and friends, held a candle lit vigil outside the shooter’s house. These supporters could be seen up in the yard of the shooter (video at bottom of article).
Please help ferret out the facts from the speculation and post any sources that help us understand what happened. I feel awful a young person lost their life and I also empathize with the poor man who was just sleeping in his own home when his world changed forever. I reserve finding fault, until I learn more.
Well then, obviously you don’t belong on the internet.
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Other then race baiters only looking at the circumstances of the shooter and the young ladies color, I feel what is missing as usual is this situation goes beyond skin color for this young lady and the shooter.
Some of these cases can teach us to hesitate and others to react. Hopefully, the Sharptons will not create conspiracy and allow the work of the professionals and law decided. Otherwise I fear this young lady will only be known as another TM. But we know TM he beat someone so…. No question about perceived threat there! However, this was an elderly man living alone. Yet, the women herself needed help. I must reserve for now.
DAMN! She hit that parked pretty good for that damage, even with the new fiberglass bodies! I was T-boned as they called it an spun around and hit on the bk qtr panel, and didn’t do this much body damage. She must have been driving at a pretty good clip.
Oh, Danny Danny Danny! It says he was 54 – please tell me you don’t really think a 54 y/o is “elderly” lol
Elderly is considered past middle age. When middle age begins is debatable. But the older we get the more we seem to snub the fact that our age group is middle aged. I place it somewhere around life expentency for the gender. I may have to adjust my definition considering Obamacare! 😛
LOL, I have to jump on the “elderly”??? bandwagon too. Since I’m WAY past 54, I consider that age the prime of life 😉
I am looking forward to middle age. I hear it is prime time!
Following.
without knowing the facts about the case, I think that the car accident is relevant. If this young woman sustained head injuries in the car accident, then it could be that she was confused about her address and that she turned up at the wrong house.
I will reserve judgement on the case until I know more about the specific details.
What is not given here is some better explanation of why the elderly man used the gun. Could it be that the young woman was making a fuss at the door because she could not get into the house that was not her own?
54 is not elderly.
Ok, now we are getting somewhere. I agree, 54 is not elderly.
There needs to be a better explanation for the shooting of this young woman.
Elderly???
that was initially what one report inaccurately stated.
As usual one has to wait to see more detail. I did see a comment that the man was elderly, and that comment was wrong.
Who is out driving and hitting parked cars at 1:30 AM on a Friday night? My guess is that Renisha was drunk and fleeing the scene of an accident to avoid being arrested for DUI. I will be most interested in seeing the toxicology report if and when it becomes available.
There are a lot of unanswered questions here, the least of which is why a homeowner would shoot someone trying to enter their house at 3:30 on a Saturday morning. Why did Renisha leave the scene of the accident despite being told help was on the way? What was she doing for the over 2 hours between the crash and the time she resurfaced on the shooter’s porch? Were there any open businesses in the area? If so, why didn’t she go to one of them instead of to a private residence?
It is ironic that the race baiters have become exactly what they rail against. They have way more in common with the KKK than with MLK. Their “vigil” in front of the shooter’s house resembles nothing more than a lynch mob. They may as well have burned a cross on the shooter’s lawn. If the hood fits…
According to her cousin, the car accident on Nov. 2nd may have been Renisha’s 4th accident. Each accident resulted in needing a new car. As she is only 19, that’s a lot of accidents.
“Krystal Byrd, 27, of Detroit, remembered her cousin as a successful young person, one who “had (good) things going for herself,” but had challenges behind the wheel.
“Her first car, she tore it up, and her daddy got her a new one. Anything she wanted, she got. And her second car, she tore that up too. And I think she did another one,” said Byrd, who wore a T-shirt emblazoned with “R.I.P. Cuzen.”
There are two things that bother me the most about the family reports. Just like the Johnson family. And TMs family.
The family report the wrong information to get a headline and attention to the death. Mcbrides family said she was shot in the back of the head. Untrue. She was shot in her face.
They also claim police told them her body was dumped in Dear Born Heights. Untrue. The family themselves did not know why she was in Dear Born and speculated after police told them of her death that someone in the city killed her and dumped her there.
Here is the report: http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/23865365/womans-body-dumped-in-dearborn-heights
The other thing is the use and application of the word racism. Racism requires an element of hate for a specific race. When someone fears someone because of race it is discrimination or sterotyping, not racism.
It prolly would help stop the sterotypes if police are entrusted with investigations and every time a black dies they stop taking to the streets with a mob mentality that this is “justice”. I feel the majority of blacks really have no qualms about being feared. It is only when it turns out not to be in their favor do they bemoan the concept of fearing them.
The claim even by this young womens family is that the homeowner got scared and shot her. Their contention is that he grabbed the gun without calling police.
The man claimed to the police that he grabbed his gun because someone was trying to force their way into his home. Fair enough. He is in his home, it is 3:30 am.
The police are conducting and investigation to see if any charges should be pressed. Some questions are unanswered. Such as why she left the scene of the accident when she was already being assisted? She left when the people went to call 911. What was she doing for the hours after she left the scene? It is the family who is reporting she was seeking help. That has yet been confirmed.
“Lt Serwatowski also wouldn’t make any definitive stance on whether or not Renisha was looking for help, drawing attention to the large gap of time between the accident and the shooting.”
“She was in a car accident, but I don’t know if she was trying to get help or what she was doing,’ he said.
I wanted to mention the case of Jonathan Ferrell that is being compared to Mcbride.
Jonathan Ferrell, 24, was in a car accident in North Carolina back in September. He pounded on a womens door at approx. 2:30am seeking help. The women called the police making a report that the man was trying to break in her home. Upon the police arriving Ferrell ran towards police who surrounded and tazered him. An Officer then shot him 10 times. The initial investigation said the Officer acted “appropriate and lawful.” Another investigation was done after the autopsy and toxicology, and they got the Officer on volintary mansluaghter for exessive force. It was determined Ferrell was seeking help after the accident and never threatened the woman or police.
However, unlike the Mcbride case Ferrell went to the nearest house right after the accident. His accident was not minor. He had to bust out the back window to get out. Police are trained when deadly force is nessessary and in this case it was not.
I dispute some of the facts in the above post. I need to find the article but the summary is the dashcam video from one of the cruisers refuted the claim that Ferrell was ” looking for help” and compliant with officers.
Danny ~ I followed that case, the Ferrell case was extremely sad, a former College football player from Fla., was a young man that seemed to be doing the right thing w/his life. The dash cam disputed the young officers accounting of events as well as his partner. Thankfully the officer was charged but that doesn’t change the loss of a young man’s life, I’d be surprised if the young officer got much jail time, but at least he will no longer be LE.
Yeah he was doing the right thing and working to excel. It is sad he is gone too soon.
There are cases where sterotypes do interfere with someones judgement of who is a threat and who is not.
I do not ever want to dismiss those cases. But his case should not be compared to this case. The only thing that is comparable is a car accident and skin color. The cop lied and thankfully he was caught. That family did forgive the officer and rightfully wanted him removed from duty.
By Mark Becker and Torie Wells
CHARLOTTE, N.C. — Channel 9 learned some new details Wednesday in the shooting of an unarmed man by a Charlotte-Mecklenburg police officer.
On Wednesday, George Laughrun, a defense attorney for CMPD Officer Randall Kerrick, said the dashcam video of the incident shows Jon Ferrell was told to stop, but kept advancing with one hand partially concealed behind his back.
“His hands were not up in the air,” Laughrun said. “You can see one of his hands partially behind his back concealed as he advanced on the officers.”
This statement refutes Ferrell’s family’s attorney, Chris Chestnut, about the dashcam video, who said Tuesday there was no warning from officers to stop before the shooting.
“There is a command of get on the ground but frankly I’m not sure if that was after the shooting started,” Chestnut said Tuesday when he spoke to Channel 9.
Charlotte Police Chief Rodney Monroe said Ferrell was told to stop and Kerrick’s attorney agrees.
“He was given at least three verbal commands to get on the ground, get on the ground, he did not,” Laughrun said.
Monroe said the first gunshots were from just a few feet away and there was physical contact between the two after the first shots were fired.
Monroe and the Ferrell family’s attorney said it was clear Ferrell was not armed and Monroe said deadly force was not justified.
Eyewitness News has requested a copy of the dash cam video but has not been able to see it yet. Channel 9 reached out to the office of Chestnut on Wednesday night, but did not immediately hear back.
Also on Wednesday, sources told Channel 9 witnesses reported to investigators they saw Ferrell drinking alcohol and smoking pot in the hours before he crashed his car.
The toxicology report has not been released to back up those claims.
Police said Ferrell crashed his car Saturday morning near Reedy Creek Road and knocked on a woman’s door.
Chestnut said Ferrell had been in the neighborhood dropping off a friend and that he was lost and disoriented after the accident.
The woman called police and said that someone was trying to break into her home.
LISTEN: 911 call
Officers said Ferrell ran at them when they arrived.
One officer failed to stop Ferrell with a stun gun.
Kerrick then opened fire, shooting 12 times, hitting Ferrell with 10 of those bullets.
Members of the Fraternal Order of Police are only saying they support Kerrick, but five days after he was charged, some officers are still concerned that is has increased tensions on the streets.
“The conversations I’ve had, there are some people who are angry and want to take immediate action, and there are some voices saying, ‘Let’s be calm,’” said Charlotte Mecklenburg Community Relations Committee Director Willie Ratchford.
Ratchford’s group gets involved when questions of police conduct, particularly when race becomes an issue, and so far, he said he doesn’t think it’s become a dividing issue in this case.
“There seems to be a diversity of opinion on both sides,” he said.
And then there is the fallout on criminal cases that involve Kerrick.
Channel 9 searched and found about two dozen that prosecutors will have to review and may dismiss after his arrest.
My position is that these were trained Officers that specific laws are applied to determine what is justifiable and what is not. Exssessive force is not ever justifiable.
Kerriks atty. is saying there where commands prior to the shots but there is contention that they happened after he began firing 12 rounds giving Ferrell no time to comply. There is contention on Kerricks accounts that Ferrell became physical.
And up until the autopsy and toxicology tests there were reports that witnesses stated Ferrell was drinking and smoking pot before he dropped of his friend. There was no pot in his system and his alcohol levels were under the legal limit.
Via Charolette Observer Sept. 18 which was prior to the decison to arrest Kerrick.
“Police Chief Rodney Monroe told the Observer’s editorial board on Tuesday that it didn’t matter whether Ferrell complied with officers’ commands or had his hands up. It was clear that Ferrell was unarmed, Monroe said, and Kerrick’s decision to shoot was unlawful.
“Sometimes we have to put up our hands and use our nightstick and other things and sometimes just retreat to handle the situation,” Monroe told the editorial board. “It can’t automatically result in use of deadly force.”
Even if Ferrell – a 24-year-old former Florida A&M University football player – was physically larger than Kerrick, that didn’t justify shooting him, Monroe said. “We have women on the force outweighed every day. That doesn’t give them instant justification to use deadly force.”
In the comments to the editorial board, Monroe said an officer told Ferrell to stop before he was shot and killed, and that a Taser fired by a second officer missed Ferrell.
Monroe also told the editorial board that the first shots were fired from a distance of “a couple of feet,” and there was physical contact between Kerrick and Ferrell after the first shots had been fired.
The contact happened after the first shots were fired, Monroe said. He said police are still reviewing the evidence to determine if it “was actually an assault, or actually a man dying.”
To add… There were 3 Officers there. Only one drew their service arm and shot. That was Kerrick who not only shot 12 rounds but did so by shooting a few round, stopping, and shooting a few more, stopping. Out of 12 rounds 10 hit Ferrell. If all Officers felt threatended it is hard to imagine only 1 out of 3 officers who are trained in defensive tactics emptied his service arm on an unarmed man.
There is no video for the public to confirm what happened . The Judge blocked its release.
Here is a photo of Ferrells car
The other questionable thing is the women reported that she thought it was her husband at the door but when she opened it she saw Ferrell. Why would her husband pound on his own door?
She then hit her panic alarm and called 911 stating Ferrel was pounding on the door and trying to break in. An edited police audio has been released. In it the dispatcher reports updates to the police who enroute to what the women is reporting. At one point the dispatcher tells the police the women said Ferrell was yelling at her to turn off the alarm and that he kicked in the door.
Here is the audio: http://www.wcnc.com/news/crime/CMPD-releases–229321821.html
The officer only knew he was responding to an attempted home invasion at 2:30 A.M. He knew nothing about the accident. I think he was charged too quickly, and it was because the police chief was afraid not to charge him due to anticipated pressure from the black community. Here’s a link. http://www.wnd.com/2013/10/north-carolina-case-eerily-reminds-of-trayvon/
Every State has laws where an officer can use deadly force. Here is N.C.s
bdivision (1) of this subsection only when it is or appears to be reasonably necessary thereby:
a. To defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of deadly physical force;
b. To effect an arrest or to prevent the escape from custody of a person who he reasonably believes is attempting to escape by means of a deadly weapon, or who by his conduct or any other means indicates that he presents an imminent threat of death or serious physical injury to others unless apprehended without delay; or
c. To prevent the escape of a person from custody imposed upon him as a result of conviction for a felony.
Nothing in this subdivision constitutes justification for willful, malicious or criminally negligent conduct by any person which injures or endangers any person or property, nor shall it be construed to excuse or justify the use of unreasonable or excessive force.
The law certainly gives the Officer a defense, but the video has been viewed an dpeople are saying as Ferrell approched he can be seen even lifing his pant legs to show he was unarmed. If the officer knew he was unarmed then that will be up to a jury tobdecided if he had reasonable fear.
I cut off some of the code. Here is the code: N.C. General Statute 15A-401(d)(2)
However, it also contains the caveat that the officer must believe that responding in kind is reasonably necessary, a standard set in the 1989 U.S. Supreme Court case Graham v. Connor. Then Chief Justice William Rehnquist wrote in the court decision the lawful use of force should be what a reasonable officer on the scene considers objectively reasonable, given the need for law enforcement to make split-second decisions.
As I said above Kerrick is the ONLY officer who drew his weapon and shot out of 3 Officers present. So was it reasonably nessessary?
I’m not sure what the third officer was doing gun wise, but one of the other officers tried to use a stun gun on him, which tells me he must have perceived him as a threat.
This is not a sure thing as in the Zimmerman case. Kerrick may, indeed, be guilty as charged, but because he was charged so quickly, and because we are seeing the same strategies being used against him as in the Zimmerman case, it is very concerning.
I have to somewhat agree Skepti. and good point about the other officers. That is what bothers me most about these type cases, the worry of public opinion, And sadly the majority seem to be when the Race Baiters show up. Sad case where they tried to pull their crap, google DeAuntae Farrow, 12 year old.
Hi Mimi. Marked Tree kid here. I did google DeAuntae Farrow, and read some of the articles. Same kind of players there, including Sharpton. I really blame the media for all this. They are the ones who give voice to the Al Sharptons, and don’t have the courage to question them or their motives. I think we should tax the media out of business like we did the cigarette companies. We should make them put a warning label in the corner of the screen while we are at it. Ha ha.
WOW small world 🙂 Lived close to there when in 4th grade 🙂 I agree media is blame for most all, my opinion as well. Especially half truths plainly in view.
Are you still here? Oh did you see that Damien Echols was at UCA tonight? Would like to have went and just listened, it was just about his writings and how it sustained him. On that case, I think they got screwed. I forever in my gut, felt that that case was another rush to arrest someone to appease the public.
I do not debate the fact the Officers perceived Ferrell as a threat considering the lack of knowledge of a car accident as well as what the dispatcher was reporting the caller was claiming. But as with any justifiable use of deadly force law the circumstances must rise to an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to be justifed in using deadly force. Force must always be met with force unless there is an imminent risk of death. That is why the one Officer discharged his tazer. He missed. If the other two officers used their tazers Ferrell would have been subdued and not dead. The question is whether Kerrick an officer used exsessive force. This case is not neccessarily a “self defense” case. He can however use the affirmative defense. But once the jury gets to reading the law during deliberations and are instructed Kerrick will have to had to act within the law I posted above.
These Officers are mandated to be trained twice a year on defense tactics, and use of deadly force. They have other forms of defense such as mace, billy clubs, and physical and driving training to stop a threat.
As far as making a decison on arresting Kerrick….. If an officer is not within their rights of use of force the Officer and the Dept. is liable. Therefore had the department not acted they could be held liable. I do not feel they decided to arrest Kerrick to avoid anything but liability. I also do not feel Kerrick shot Ferrell just because he was black. The Officer was quite new to the force, he had limited knowledge of the situation, he was getting the wrong incident reports….but once he was there to access the situation is a whole other story. He and only he coild determine what force was approriate. The question now is was it exessive?
Indeed, it is a concern that the same tactics are being used as were used against Zimmerman. Yesterday, I heard an advertisement for insurance for gun owners in case they have to defend themselves. You can take out insurance that will pay for your defense if you are charged with murder for defending yourself. That’s certainly an indication of a trend.
Not to mention the attorney would be suing to have the video released so he could take it to CNN/Anderson Cooper if it made Ferrell look completely innocent. One thing that has always puzzled me, if he wanted help, and she said she was calling 911, why didn’t he find a place to sit and wait until they got there instead of continuing to bang on her door and yell for her to turn off the alarm?
If Ferrell was such a threat, why didn’t any other officers take a shot at him as he was approaching/threatening Kerrick? No one has an answer to that and until they do, I believe that officer was rightfully charged.
In the McBride case, although the homeowner/gun owner had a gun for protection, there was no reason imo he needed to open his front door, jmho. Detroit is a high crime city full of unemployment, empty businessrs/houses, bankrupt, & 1/2 of the former citizens have moved away from Detroit, almost 750,000 people. I can understand WHY a homeowner would be afraid but it is my understanding 911 has been called so WHY open the door? I haven’t read she was shot through a shut door.
The homeowners attorney seems confident he won’t be charged, but I don’t know, I agree w/everyone, we need more facts. I first read she was shot in the face THEN the family claimed she was shot in the BACK of the head walking away from the porch.
Shooting through a door is, IMO, more reckless than opening the door. I think she was lost and thought that was her mother’s house…she was banging loudly just wanting to finally go to bed after 3 hours of walking around – he opened the door and she probably pushed on the door to get in. I don’t know how to post pics here, but her house (mother’s house) and the shooters house are both on the same side of the street on a corner…and look eerily alike.
Danny ~ When I ask my friends that are attorney’s about shooting someone trying to break into a homeowners home, they say “you better drag them into your house, you can’t just someone for being on your property.” I live in La., I don’t know what the laws are in other states, but imo, this homeowner may well be charged. The reports state McBride was not shot at close range, so, why did the homeowner OPEN his door if he was afraid which would surely be his defense & shoot McBride especially if 911 had been called.
McBride could have possibly been incoherent, I am certainly not taken a position n the limited facts & I discount the opinions of the family as they were NOT there & didn’t know what McBride was thinking. More info needed.
Up until 2011 PA. (my state) had no Castle Doctrine. When I was a teenager we lived on a floor level apartment. One time while we slept someone tried to get in a window. My Mom called the cops. The cops told her to make sure to drag the person in before you do anything. I was shocked. The Officer told my Mom she would go to jail or be sued even if the persons one leg was out the window and their other leg inside.
I do expect this man to be charged. The reason why I believe he will be because she was not shot at close range, and the owner said it was an accident. That leads me to believe he is seeking an involintary manslaughter charge. You can stand your ground and claim it was an accident.
I wanted to share this yesterday and forgot to. This is a video on Utube I found two years ago. Now, this is a disturbing audio of a 911 call of Donna Jackson who lived in the middle of nowhere, home alone who had no choice but to shoot. She was on the phone with 911. The guy scaled a property fence and appeared to have some type of mental disturbance. These are the incidents in why homeowners need these laws. Warning it is emotional.
Danny ~ I agree w/your thoughts, I too think this homeowner is going to be charged. I read of a scumbag criminal left paralyzed by a homeowner shooting him & his 2 friends breaking into his home a couple of months ago, he lived & sued the homeowner in a “civil suit” for damages as he is in a wheelchair.” OUTRAGEOUS imo. geeeeeeeeeeez louise, nothing more dangerous than criminals that have “rights.”
It’s hard for me to believe she died on the porch as it is so small, it appears to be 3 r 4 ft. wide in length/width. Have you seen the porch? The Captain shared a video this morning in which the owner of the parked car stated “McBride was bleeding from the face, they called & EMS & 911 but McBride left the scene.” McBride wouldn’t have the legal right to leave the scene of the accident but wouldn’t it have been illegal for the owner of the car & a few other concerned bystanders to detain McBride until EMS arrived? Sadly, it might have saved her life.
I have seen the porch. But he could have opened the door and stepped back and shot her. I could not imagine her knocking or trying abdoor knob and then standing off the porch. And if she did is is hard to claim SYG because that will be viewed as a retreat of the pereived threat dont you think?
As for the accident… the police recieved a report of a non injury accident so they delayed going. Only when she returned 40 minutes later did they report an injury. So something is fishy with that.
As for your question about keeping her there. I suppose someone could get busted for holding someone against their will (false imprisonment) but if you suspect a head injury a person may not be acting rationally and it is in their best interest to get them help or help them. Either way if someone is legatious enough they could sue you for not helping or helping so…..this is our society what can I say?
PA has had Castle Doctrine. It was amended in 2011 with Stand Your Ground.
I should have said Stand your ground provision. Thanks for catching that.
He’s not saying he shot her in self-defense, he says the gun went off on accident.
Jamie Foxx Throws Star-Studded Fundraiser for Trayvon Martin Foundation
November 11, 2013 National News
Actor Jamie Foxx paid tribute to Trayvon Martin over the weekend with a special fundraiser for a foundation bearing the late teen’s name.Celebrity guests included Russell Simmons, Harry Belafonte, Tyrese, Larenz Tate, Tank and Tim Robbins. According to NecoleBitchie.com, Simmons presented Trayvon’s parents with a six-figure check, and Belafonte gave a speech.
Afterward, Tyerese posted a photo on Instagram along with the caption, “A powerful gathering of “Influence” organized by @iamjamiefoxx this brother and friend raised a lot of money on behalf of the Trayvon Martin foundation…. I showed up cause I’m uncomfortable with injustice .. Jamie Foxx I’m very proud of you and HOW you’re using your influence.”
I just finished reading the report. The gun shot hit her just below the left eye on the left side of her nose.
Nettles ~ I have read several articles which stated “McBride was not shot at close range,” which, imo, is questionable about WHY the homeowner even opened his door. This case is hinky stinky thus far, of course who knows what is considered “not close range.” I would guess 7 or 8 feet but who knows?
Of course the family is claiming she was shot in the back of the head I guess inferring she was walking away from the porch. I too wonder if the homeowner could not see her hands to even know if she was armed or not. I just can’t understand WHY this homeowner felt compelled to open his door.
I’m thinking along the same lines so far ArtTart. With gun ownership comes responsibility. He had choices and one was not opening the door. I feel for the guy, he’s in his bed sleeping and someone trying to get into the house would have been scary. I can’t think in the morning until I’ve had my caffeine but when you put a gun in your hand, you have a responsibility to use it as only a last resort. I think he should be charged with what I’ve seen so far.
There is a responsibility Nettie. A loaded gun with saftey off? Not responsible.
As for what Unitron mentions above many an individual have been charged with manslaughter for gun accidents. Thus far we know he shot her on the porch and it was not close range. Dont people think about maybe opening a second floor window to ask people what they want? The argument that he was half asleep is illogical. He was awake enough to grab a loaded gun. And fear causes adrenaline so…..
Do we know for certain that he did open the door?
Do we know what kind of lighting there was?
Is it possible he saw a figure all in dark clothes apparently trying to break in his door and either shot to deter them before they could get in to harm him, or he tripped or slipped or something and something caused the gun to go off?
unitron ~ what we do know is that McBride was not shot at close range, close range would have been a shot through the door w/McBride trying to get in, we know that didn’t happen. We do know that the homeowner had his finger on the trigger of the shot gun, it takes 2 hands to hold a shotgun, imo, he opened the door, saw McBride, & shot her. Then he claims he “accidentally” shot her hitting her in the face & the shot wasn’t even at close distance, something hardly believable imo if he tries to claim “accident.”
imo, this guy will be arrested possibly as soon as today.
Thank you. I don’t know how long the barrel of a shotgun is…but he had to not only open his front door IN, but a storm door OUT…how much room does that give him to lift his gun and shoot her NOT at close range?? No one has said he opened the door…and really, no direct quote that she was shot on the front porch, only found there…she may have made it back out the door for all we know.
Range of Fire:
Contact: muzzle of gun touches target
– Tight: fouling in tissue, muzzle stamp
– Loose: fouling on skin and in tissue, searing
Close: 30″ Neither Fouling or Stippling http://pathologyexpert.com/boards/forensics/gsw.htm
Looking at the autopsy report, the image shws damage to the upper lip also. Shot gun patterns can be tested using to same weapon so that a determination can be made for distance. IMO, very close to 3ft., not 6-8 ft. The cluster is close. The distances you are talking about would give a broader pattern.
In lieu of an edit button, it would also appear that she had her head partially turned to her right.
Someone here mentioned the partial autopsy report also noted wad was recovered from inside the wound and it appears because of that it was close range.
A wad can enter the body at 8 -10 feet and can travel up to 50′. Some times even wad petal marks are seen the closer the shot occurs. There is no note of those marks in the autopsy report. The closer the shot the more likely a wad petal occurs usually 1-3 ft. Wad petals occur on the skin from the plastic of the shot casing when it is fired. A wad is either plastic or cardboard that helps the shot sustain being fired. There were no mention of these marks.
There are rumors he shot through the door. But there is no mention any other material on or in her that would indicate he shot through the door. So that quells the rumor he shot through the door and as to why there is no powder residue or muzzle burn. There is actually a glass screen door in front of the other maroon house door. So he would have had to shoot through two doors.
In forensics there are four types of gunshot wounds:
Contact wound – The muzzle of the gun was applied to the skin at the time of shooting.
Close Range – The muzzle of the gun was 6-8 inches away from the skin at shooting.
Intermediate Range – The gun was 8 inches to 3.5 feet away.
Distant – The gun was over 3.4 feet away at the time of shooting.
IMO what happened was she opened the screen door and he opened the other door, he stepped back into the house and shot her. He is claiming it was an accidental discharge. From that range, two doors, and shot location it appears there was no accidental discharge.
As far as the wound path it does not appear she was turned. It is just the path the pellets took from hitting bone and tissue. The shot location and the wound path tells us the gun was at least level and pointed at her face.
Range can be confusing because there’s no clear consensus as to what exactly determines close vs intermediate vs distant range.
My textbook (field manual) states that wadding will only enter the body at close range, the above textbook states that it can enter a body at up to six feet, and your source is stating up to 10 feet.
My ballistics instructor gave us a common sense explanation: The amount of force required to drive what is essentially a dense cottonball into a human body is so great that it would necessarily have to be a fairly close range shot to get penetration. It will be embedded in the skin at longer distances, and leaves a distinctive bruise pattern at even longer distances.
Anyway, my point was the AME’s reporting that there was ‘no evidence of close range discharge’ cannot be taken to mean that it was not a close range shot because 1) the clustering suggests fairly close range, 2) the presence of wadding in the brain suggests close range, and 3) the shot was through a screen door. Her noting the lack of discharge was simply her noticing a void pattern.
And boy I never noticed until now how suggestive a lot of the terminology is lol 🙂
I have read several articles which stated “McBride was not shot at close range,” which, imo, is questionable about WHY the homeowner even opened his door. This case is hinky stinky thus far, of course who knows what is considered “not close range.” I would guess 7 or 8 feet but who knows?
Remember in TM case, all the confusion about the range? It was labeled “intermediate” by one agency, and something else (a range of ranges lol) by someone else. Anyway, people were insisting, “oh it was intermediate, he shot him from a distance!” And someone in that case (Crump) was saying for awhile in the beginning that he was shot in the back, which was always known to be false. Anyway, what was TM – a few inches? (as far as sweatshirt hung down) So if that was intermediate, then “not at close range” would certainly cover a few feet from doorway to victim in this case, I would guess.
On this veterans day….an amazing song and music video about my younger brother Ssg Brian Piercy KIA on July 19th 2010 Staff Sergeant Brian Piercy lost his life in Afghanistan. Soldier’s Song is a tribute song to Brian, written by a friend. Available on itunes soon. Available on cd baby right now.
I’m so sorry for your loss David. ((hugs))
We all have a debt to people like your brother who gave his life to ensure we enjoy our freedom.
Today is Remembrance Day in Canada and at 11:00 am we stop for 2 minutes and remember. It’s a federal holiday for many and provincial holiday for some. I’ve been crying all day with stories I’m hearing. We are very blessed. ♥
I share Annette sentiment, I am very sorry you lost your brother to war.
The best memorial to your brother is to fiercely, but lawfully, guard the precious liberties we enjoy, be the “watchmen” to insure that those liberties are not eroded through passivity on our part.
Timeline gathered thus far from articles I’ve read:
1:00 am ~ Police rec’d call about a non-injury accident, woman driving a 2004 Ford Taurus was speeding & hit a parked car. Occupant LEFT the scene of accident.
LE didn’t immediately respond as the accident was considered a “low priority” w/no injuries.
1:40 am ~ LE was called again as driver of the Taurus returned, LE immediately responded BUT when they arrived, McBride has left for the 2nd time.
3:40 am ~ McBride shot/killed at homeowner’s residence.
WHERE was McBride for almost 2 hours? Was she incoherent? A possible concussion & confused? Knocking on other doors where homeowner chose not to respond or didn’t hear the knock?
According to the autopsy report she was wet. I don’t know what the weather condition was that night.
WHAT will the toxicology report show on McBride, does anyone know how long it takes the ME to get this information? She had 2 hours unaccounted for, did she pass out? A closed head injury? WHY did she leave the scene when by standers tried to help her, did she fear being in trouble w/her parents as a cousin has said she has “wrecked several cars?”
WHAT is the solution w/young people having wrecks/disabled automobiles after 1:00 am & NOT having charged cell phones in cases of emergencies? In this case, McBride had assistance from the owner of the auto she hit as well as other bystanders, BUT, she left, THEN, came back & 911 was called again, & she left yet again. McBride’s case is different than the case Danny mentioned yesterday in which the young man was shot by police, he too had been in a wreck & knocked on the door late at night when the homeowner called 911 claiming he was trying to break in.
It’s irksome that this is being compared to GZ’s case, it makes my blood boil. The family putting out lies, their mouthpiece attorney continuing to contribute hearsay, NOT facts, & the family claiming this was a case of “racism,” which has promptly been dismissed by Prosecutors is tiresome. This case has been taken directly from the grifter handbook authored by Sybrina/Crump/Tracy/BGI, jmho.
All those questions may not be answered. But like I said the inital call to the police made no mention of injuries. Only after she returned 40 minutes later were the police called and injuries were reported. Could she have gone to another home and got injured? Could she have fell and injured herself? Was she injured in the accident and initially appeared fine? Was she under the influence of drugs or alcohol? Was she on medication that affected her driving or thinking?
Toxicology reports take awhile depending on what they are looking for. Usually it takes 4-6 weeks from the time of the autopsy. But sometimes they take longer if they are looking for metabolites (break down of drugs and their effects).
I am sure her health history was collected and they will try to piece it all together.
I agree with your thoughts on the family. This happened on the 2nd. They are already looking at all evidence and the possibility of a warrant. But personally I refuse to complain about the inserted race aspect. It is what they want. What do you think “No Justice No peace” means.
VP, consider the source… Blackbutterfly is the black racist witch XENA! She thinks she is a know it all anything legal. Pot stirrer for sure. LOL and the further the GZ case went, lol she was on first name basis and “friend and helper of justice” with the grafters and Chumpster. Just look, the more racist you are or appear, seems the further you go… look at Leatherhead…and she is one of his “supporters”. She is full of false knowledge. One I am positive of lol, she has accused me of being someone, that there is no way of and it comes from another blog I use to comment one. Actually, knowing what I DO know, makes it kinda funny. But all the damage such ignorance does, is dangerous to so many.
Could poss be that they are awaiting results on firearm tests. I say this because of reading that the man said the gun went off, so I took it as him poss meaning malfunctioned. Bad situation all around.
captain ~ thanks for the clip, that really looked like a serious accident, I can’t believe McBride walked away although a bystander said she was bleeding & 911 had been called but LE said it was reported as a “non injury accident.”
Too, the reporter said “she was shot through the door” but imo, that didn’t happen as it showed the door & the door had a clear storm door in front of it, I think they are some type of Plexiglas, BUT, there were no visible signs of a gunshot through either door. I too envisioned for some reason this was a large porch in which it wasn’t, I assume McBride was standing the grass in front of the porch since the porch was so small.
I can visualize exactly how the shooter felt. I number of years ago i was sound alseep and some way or another a gallon jug of bleach fell off the counter in the kitchen and landed on the floor with a hard thud. It sounded exactly like someone was trying to kick in my front door. I leaped out of bed and immediately called 911 only the embarassedly explain to the dispatcher when i got to the kitchen I saw what had happened and told her she could cancel the dispatch.
LOL, I feel you, I was on phone with friend late one night and heard what sounded like a gunshot LOUD and Close. Well lol it really turned out to be two fold. First what I heard and squealed out was a 2 liter drink bottle I had gotten drink from earlier, POPPED, I guess the plastic bottle/carbonation. My friend was laughing at me and I was catching my breath when I heard a LOUD THUD. There are apartments in our area, I can see but not real close. I looked out my window to see a man kicking in the door and the lady screaming an holding door. I told friend have to call 911 for real, the dispatcher said they have about 6 calls going on it at the moment. So I called my friend back and said good thing I not a drinking person or I think I would be concerned lol. Felt crazy and then kinda dazed. FYI, haven’t bought a 2 liter drink in a long time lol
For those interested here is Michigans SYG code. http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(2zlwno55q402twvmnhcr4eij))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-780-951
Although the homeowner who shot Mcbride is stating this was an accident it is being assumed he will invoke a selfdefense claim because his atty. has stated her client believed Mcbride was breaking in and he feared for his saftey. Not sure that he will be successful. If we look at the arguments currently ongoing with mandatory sentencing of just brandishing and firing weapons this man has a good chance of being charged.
Michigan and New York have the most stiffest penalties concerning those laws.
Nettles ~ thanks so much for featuring 2 other cases which are both interesting while we wait for something to happen in GZ’s case, STILL waiting for something to happen w/sanctions.
I didn’t get in on the beginning of Kendricks case, I had kept up w/the MacNeil case from the beginning & it finally went to trial which concluded w/the Doctor/Lawyer being convicted of murdering his wife. His adult daughters were responsible for pushing the investigation, compiled evidence, & charges were finally brought when a Detective pursued it & in addition, revealed another crime in which the Doctor/mistress both did Federal time for before the murder case was tried..
I don’t know what can stop families from putting foth inaccurate information on any murder/accident/incident BEFORE LE has an opportunity to do an extensive investigation, countless news agencies report their every statement even when they know it is not a fact.. It’s appalling so many BELIEVE the families narrative/attorneys WITHOUT the facts in a case, but some make their minds up based solely on inaccurate information as we have seen.
Nettles is a great host!
It is unlikely anthing will ever be done legally about families releasing information right or wrong during an investigation. I believe in the end it affects all victims families from being able to keep up to date with investigations as police are beginning to refuse to release any information or limited information to families because they release information entrusted to them as victims.
The only way to counter this type of behavior is if the public in a whole decides to wait for the results of a through investigation or start fighting back against those who insert such speculation. For instance what a disservice to Renisha that her family said she was shot in the back of her head. What a disservice to her as a person to make this about race when there is no proof it was. Was it really needed? Nope.
The only other way is if police departments with hold any information until an investigation is completed. The thing is there are times the police must rely on the public and at times they should. But if they begin to withhold information from race baiters they will be accused of discrimination, or cover ups. As a local government agency there is not anything they can do legally for defamation.
jmho ~ if the homeowner is charged today r in the next few days, I speculate the Attorney for the family will immediately file a “wrongful death suit” against the homeowner. No doubt McBride’s family will be successful, just as we saw the HOA settle that case quickly EVEN THOUGH TM was the one that was assaulting GZ.
The Detroit News notes it will be difficult for the homeowner to defend himself using Michigan’s self-defense law given McBride died on the porch, not inside the home. The paper also notes that the medical examiner’s report there was “no evidence of close range discharge of a firearm” likely means the barrel of the gun was not pressed against McBride’s face. <—–that's bizarre that castle doctorine is restricted to the structure itself and does not extend at least to the property line
David,
Some states have SYG provisions in the Castle Doctrine. I do not believe Michigan has that provision. However, even if a State has no written SYG or Castle Doctrine (ie;California) straight up justifiable use of deadly force laws still exsist. I believe they are saying because she was killed on the porch and he was in the house the law does not protect him under the States Castle Doctrine. Under the Castle Doctrine if an intruder comes into your house, buisness, or vehicle you have no duty to retreat.
For instance in my State we have the SYG provision. Not sure if Michigan does. But it is not like Floridas. So before you can stand your ground (and we do not have to retreat in public under the SYG provision) when retreat is possible — and you shoot and kill an assailant because there is fear of severe bodily injury, an assailant must have a lethal weapon to apply SYG.
Under PA.s new law, a person in any lawful place outside his home “has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his ground and use force, including deadly force if . . . (he) believes it is immediately necessary to do so to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping, or sexual intercourse by force or threat.” (18 PA consolidated statutes 505(b)(2.3)).
The Castle Doctrine is for INSIDE the home, buisness or vehicle. For public there is the SYG provision.
I know many are like “How do you know if they have a weapon?” My state is OCD. Pretty much They even define fists as weapons. So say a guy is a boxer? His fists are considered a deadly weapon. If he knows marial arts his hands and feet are deadly weapons. Spitting on someone is battery!
GZ would have never been charged if he lived here.
I personally feel the claim that ” renisha was just seeking help” id now dead on arival as we now know she ha help twice before the shooting and declined
I agree with that assessment. However, what would have provoked her to go to the door of that homeowner had it not been for some type of help? There were no other reports of her at anyone elses door. No other reports of a break in. Nobody had reported anything even so much as a dog barking within 6 blocks even after the fact.
Speculating here. Maybe she was lost. Maybe she was under the influence at the time of the accident and wanted to avoid police. So she walked around or hung out somewhere until she was sober. Or maybe she was lost. I do not think it even matters why she went to the door. The man said it was an accident.
More speculation….Given she told witnesses at the crash site she wanted to go home, I wonder if she thought she was home….trying the front and side door.
I won’t be surprised to hear she lived on a corner unit similiar to the one she died at.
I don’t put any stock in the family saying she went to the house for help. She had declined help twice that night if the reports are to be trusted.
I am just trying to consider why THAT house? And why that direction? Help in the sense for an injury no, does not add up, but if she was lost, or confused it does add up.
Danny ~ we don’t know that RM didn’t knock on other doors & possibly the homeowners didn’t hear the knock or CHOSE not to go to the door.
I wouldn’t go to my door that late at night under any circumstances if someone were banging on my door. I might yell from inside my house “WHAT do you want,” if they said they needed assistance,” I’d call 911 & give my address. Since Detroit & Chicago lead the nation in crime & murder, it’s understandable imo.
True. I am just dissuading the speculation with more speculation….lol
“Police say a call came in at 12:57 am that a female was “speeding.” She hit a parked car and fled on foot.
At 1:23 am another call, the driver was back and appeared intoxicated or she could have been dazed from the crash.
She ended up walking some 6 blocks across Warren, into Dearborn Heights and to the house where she would be shot and killed.
Dearborn Heights police got the call at 4:30 am, 3 1/2 hour after the crash. Police sources say that big time gap is a mystery.
A friend of Renisha’s family says they’ve been told Renisha went into a house near her crash. She was disoriented, bleeding, said she wanted to go home and walked out.
Her cell phone went dead, it has not been found, but records are being checked.”
Investigation is not even complete and the family is already demanding a CONVICTION! The family of a Michigan woman who was shot to death outside a home after a car accident is demanding a conviction for the shooter, who has been neither arrested nor charged, as the woman’s autopsy results show that she died from a gunshot wound to the face.
Renisha McBride, 19, died early on the morning of Nov. 2 in Dearborn Heights, Mich.
Maybe they should just shoot him on their front porch. An eye for an eye. Pitch forks for everyone. Its the 21st century civil rights movement! Tighten your boot straps!
These people have NO concept of the justice system. No respect for it. This is nothing more then modern day lynch mobbing. Mob mentality that what it is!
“The only way justice will be served is by getting a conviction, not just by filing charges.”
This sounds worrisome. There is nothing they can do to “get a conviction”, that’s up to a jury. That is, unless they want to get Crump involved and try to influence potential jury members.
Something really stinks in the Mcbride family dynamic. Some serious enabling going on. According to a friend by age 19 Renisha had already totaled FOUR cars and her father keeps buying her replacements.
Which is why I think she left the scene and refused to be helped.
I looked it up. Michigan DOES have a SYG provision, very similar to my state.
I really think the laws do not apply to this gentleman though. Not the Castle Doctrine anyway.
And to use SYG he would be saying he had no duty to retreat drom what? She would have had to threaten him, have a weapon, or trying to get in the house as he opened the door, or trying to harm him in some way. ” I thought she was breaking into my house, so I opened my door and the gun discharged by accident” is not covered under either law.
He’s going to walk for the same reason Zimmeman did…no one to rebut the shooters story
It’s amazing to me that RM is described by family as “knocking,” they have NO idea if she was pounding on the door or if she was yelling or asking politely for assistance, there was a reason the homeowner thought she was trying to break in. There is the old con, send a woman to someone’s door asking for help, when the door is opened, several men rush in to overpower the homeowner to rob him. That’s not the circumstance in this case, but the family is hell bent on putting out their narrative instead of waiting for facts. They have tried unsuccessfully to make this about race but the Prosecutors shot that down immediately.
Are experts checking for the amount of pressure needed to fire the gun, or to see if the gun possibly had a “hair trigger” which might support the homeowner?
Lost cell phone which can be located, she had no shoes on, & reportedly driving fast when she hit the parked auto. I’ll be very surprised if she has a clean toxicology.
Wonder if the “Justice for” crowd has already started with the “testing the victim and not the murderer” crap yet.
“(a) The individual against whom deadly force or force other than deadly force is used is in the process of breaking and entering a dwelling or business premises or committing home invasion or has broken and entered a dwelling or business premises or committed home invasion and is still present in the dwelling or business premises, or is unlawfully attempting to remove another individual from a dwelling, business premises, or occupied vehicle against his or her will.”
Sounds like if people (prosecutor/jury) believe his story that she was breaking in then he walks based on MI’s castle doctrine.
Michigan has a similiar statute like my State. I would not be suprised that they infer his perception and do not charge. But as it stands so far he is claiming it was an accidental discharge. I have not yet looked up any cases where a home owner invoked the Castle Doctrine in the subject manner we are speaking such as perceieved break in, or accidental discharge.
I know there was a case in my state in 2012 where it was invoked when some guy was climbing through a window and the homeowner shot and killed a man. They initially charged the homeowner, but then dropped the charges citing the Castle Doctrine.
I am going to do some case research today on Michigan. Most times even though these incidents should be looked at on a case by case basis, prosecutors apply precedence to former cases. Yet again this is another racially charged event so application can go either way.
I am just on the information we have since the partial autopsy. There still is much we do not know.
At 2hrs 28 mins dream defenders founder Phillip Agnew tells us that stand your ground laws and castle doctrine are based soley on fear, predjudice, and hate for minorities http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8JlsT4lcYk
At 2hrs 40 min dream defender member tell florida legislators that Zimmerman successfully used the stand your ground defense to be acquitted after a fight and shooting that Zimmerman started
While Al and Jesse are screaming race and no justice no peace and circulating the cash trashcans in suburban Detroit we have a black shooter in Houston shooting up a birthday party in Houston injuring 20, two of them fatally
HOUSTON (AP) — A house party in suburban Houston to celebrate a girl’s 18th birthday erupted into gunfire that killed two teens, wounded many others, and caused some partygoers to flee for their lives through second-story windows, authorities said Sunday.
Saturday’s party in Cypress, an unincorporated area about 25 miles northwest of Houston, was promoted openly on several social media sites and drew more than 100 people, most of them 17- to 19-year-olds, Harris County Sheriff Adrian Garcia said. The birthday girl’s mother attended the party at her home. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/10/houston-party-shooting-deaths/3488451/
Hummm. I suspected that is why she left the scene.
I wonder if she had a valid DL?
I learned tonight Detriot is so overwhelmed that yes, it may be ok to just leave your car after crashing it and walk away because the police don’t have time to track you down in a timely manner to see if you were impaired when you crashed.
My sister-in-law is a cop. I’m going to ask her if our police have time to look for those who crash into parked cars here in the wee hours of the morning.
I haven’t read anything about where RM was the evening of the accident until later in the night when she got behind the wheel of her car & hit a parked car.
If RM had alcohol in her system, at 19 that is illegal. I wonder where she was all evening, was she partying w/friends & who bought the alcohol? I don’t think her parent’s have claimed at any point RM was w/them, no one has done a media interview to claim they were w/RM before the car accident, where was she?
I just read from Coreshifts link:
Renisha left her home at 11 p.m. to go to a friend’s house.
Had RM started drinking BEFORE she left her home or began drinking at the friends house? No doubt they will have her alcohol level soon.
Alcohol in system + 2 hours unaccounted for time = walking and trying to sober up before having to deal with the police
“… “There was an entrance shotgun wound to the face, with no evidence of close range discharge of a firearm noted on the skin surrounding this wound,” reads the report by Wayne County Assistant Medical Examiner Kilak Kesha, who ruled McBride’s death a homicide. …”
Seems like a lot of folks are taking this to mean that she was shot from some distance, but shotgun wounds are very different from other gun shot wounds and soot and abrasion may or may not be present.
The autopsy does, however, state that “fragments of wad were recovered from the brain” and this only occurs in close range shots.
The fairly concentrated mass of pellets is also indicative of close range.
And ‘if’ she was shot through the door as some are reporting, that would explain the lack of soot and abrasion…
My million dollar question of the night…now that we know that Renisha was under the influence at the time of her accident, how many of the four other cars she totaled by age 19 were DUI’s also?
ROFLMAO
NicoleSheletteCannon
I THINK HE TOOK HER TO HIS HOUSE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF HER AND SHE WANTED TO GO HOME WHY WOULD SHE WALK THREE MILES BEFORE SHE CAN GET HELP BY THAT TIME SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN SOBER….. IJS
4 Hours Ago · Reply
I’m aware that it is an antiquated slur for black people, but I grew up in the midwest, and “coon” was what we called racoons.
For KJ case – I just read the article which interviewed the coroner – he’s complaining that the body was moved before he got there. I believe he is referring to the people pulling the rolled mat down. Would he prefer that they not have ascertained that the person in the mat was not merely unconscious and in need of immediate help?
I read the comments on an article someone had posted on last thread (I think) – it almost gave me PTSD, it was just like the TM case, so many people commenting who so obviously knew NOTHING of the case but assumed they did, asking why would he be reaching for a sneaker when they are behind him, one person said he’s a football player, didn’t someone notice he didn’t show up at the field house that afternoon? I can’t remember any more right now, but it so reminded me of the TM supporters, refusing to read the easily found facts,sometimes right above their comments in an article.
I’m starting to think that the frequent reactions of “racism!” are actually projection. I’m thinking they may be racists themselves, so automatically blame others as being racist. But not the professionals – I think they know they’re frauds – they’re just in it for the money. They wouldn’t reinforce false information if they were genuine, and if they were really leaders.
And in the minister video – he said he put up his house to bail the family out of jail. Why in the world were they arrested? What did they do? Anyone know?
I certainly believe in self-defense, and I think it’s nuts that criminals can sue you for injuries they receive in the commission of a crime. But I don’t think people should be allowed to kill thieves in their home. Let’s say you’re upstairs and hear noise, you peek downstairs and see someone putting your stuff into a big bag – robbing you. I don’t think they should be able to kill the robber – the state doesn’t even give criminals the death penalty. If you could shoot them in the leg, okay, but I understand that is difficult. Now if they see you and start up the stairs after you, then I think you could shoot, because there would be reason to think they are coming to hurt you.
As far as this current case, I agree with those who don’t understand why he opened the door. I read an article in which he said she tried first one door and then the other. So call the police and stand by with your gun ready – inside at a safe distance from any possible entry point. Yell out that you have a gun and have called 911. I mean, the police can’t even shoot unless they think the person has a weapon, or is acting violently and closing the distance. If a homeowner opens a door to someone, they’re guaranteed not to have sufficient time to judge the situation – and they’re probably putting their gun within grabbing distance of the person at the door.
I hope we learn more about the victim’s family. Very interesting that they enabled her to keep getting drunk and crashing cars. They obviously didn’t worry too much about the deaths and injuries she could have caused. And didn’t appear to have been concerned about the underage (and excesive) drinking. Matter of fact, I guess good old dad wasn’t even concerned about throwing away good money on all those soon-to-be-wrecked cars.
A theory (speculation) that’s been floated is he didn’t immediately identify the noises that woke him up. He went to investigate the sounds with shotgun in hand (just in case) and was startled (reflexively/unconsciously fired) when he opened the door. Only then did he conclude the sounds were an intruder trying to get in since the intruder was right there in front of him. People don’t always call the cops for every strange noise they hear. Many people would just grab a weapon if they had one and go investigate. Only calling the cops if the situation warranted it.
lorac shared:
“But I don’t think people should be allowed to kill thieves in their home. Let’s say you’re upstairs and hear noise, you peek downstairs and see someone putting your stuff into a big bag – robbing you. I don’t think they should be able to kill the robber – the state doesn’t even give criminals the death penalty.”
lorac ~ There is a much bigger picture imo than you are remotely considering, I wholeheartedly disagree. The State DOESN’T give criminals enough time so they are free to commit more crimes imo, it’s NOT the job of the homeowner to figure out what the thief’s intentions are. I think a homeowner has every right to shoot a scumbag putting “loot in a big bag” inside their home. It’s ILLEGAL to break into someone’s home to rob them & it is LEGAL for the homeowner to shoot that scumbag, homeowners nor business owner’s are rarely ever charged when this occurs.
It’s unfortunate that Dr. Petit DIDN’T have a gun to blow the brains out of the scumbags that raped his wife, & 2 daughters ONLY before tying them to their beds & lighting them on fire all the while Dr. Petit lay helpless in his basement without a gun to protect the thieves/murderers. Thieves are spineless POS’s imo, just as we saw the 2 murderers of this beautiful family beg for their lives instead of a death sentence. It heartbreaking to think Mrs. Petit believed the thieves she had gotten the money from the bank for from the bank was going to let her family go free, , after all, those murdering thieves had told Mrs. Petit that would leave as soon as they got the money, she was dead wrong.
It’s unfortunate that Elizabeth Smart’s dad didn’t have a gun to shoot the perverted scumbag that abducted Elizabeth Smart & repeatedly raped the teenager for 8 months changing her life forever. jmho, there is no way to KNOW the intentions of any scumbag that has illegally entered your residence, we know from countless cases of homeowners being murdered, those that enter illegally are not our friends. There are countless cases of homeowners that did as you suggested, called 911 w/the thief in their home ONLY to be murdered before LE arrives.
The problem is, it is usually NOT the first rodeo of thieves brazen enough to come into an occupied dwelling, absolutely no one knows how many scumbag friends are waiting outside, jmho, homeowners owe them nothing
I will reserve any judgement on your opinions about home invasion other then that I just feel that your home is the utmost private, secure sanctity one has. If people have the balls to enter who knows what else they would do to avoid being caught. If some are willing to risk it they certainly have the right not to shoot.
I do agree with you about RMc (do not want to confuse Rick Madigan with Mcbride..lo@) family. My oldest just got her first job to save for a car. We could buy her one. Being she is 16 this buys me more life lesson time, and buys her some responsibility in more ways then one. She will take care and appreciate that responsibility much more if she works for it. If she wrecks her car or is irresponsible it will be taken or she will lose her job because she will not have transportation and she lost everything she worked for. This is all a part of growing up. It also teaches them they are capable of long term goals. Too many parents are stuck in the reward system. Rewarding their kids for every achievement. Does the real world work that way? Nope.
The reward for good grades in my home is the good grade and proud parents. There already is a reward system. Major achievements and mile stones different story.
Our kids make mistakes but they will never learn to become productive if everything is handed to them and if they are bailed out each time. Next thing you know they are irresponsible adults and your still bailing them out. It helps keep them grounded and to make better choices next time if they have to do without from their own irresponsibility.
They failed their child.
Danny ~ sadly, we read over & over & over about home invasions in which occupants are murdered, no one can predict what a criminal will do that has entered your home illegally, nobody. imo, Americans are fed up w/crime. When my dad retired from working as a Building Contractor, he & my mom opened a gun store as my dad had been interested in guns all his life. When it wasn’t hunting season & long rifles were what sold the most, the rest of the year hand guns were sold mostly to those that had been victims of crime themselves r people that just wanted to protect themselves/their homes.
Certainly anyone can choose NOT to shoot a burglar but WHY own a gun if someone has entered your home illegally & you can’t predict what they will do? What if you shot the burglar in the leg r arm & the burglar pulls a gun from their loot bag & shoots you dead? Sometimes, guns are taken from homeowners that didn’t shoot because the homeowner just thought they would hold the gun on the thief until LE arrived. As many of us say, w/gun ownership comes responsibility. I guess no one can predict what they would do unless they are confronted under the circumstances.
KUDOS to your daughter for getting her first car & having a job, RM’s family did her a disservice if in fact it is true she has wrecked 4 other cars. Danny, your daughter is showing a lot of maturity & you/wife are teaching important values, but because your her dad consider investing in a cell phone charger for the lighter socket in her car, that way she will never have a “dead cell phone,” do it for you, not for her, she could always call you in any circumstance. They are cheap, maybe $ 10.00. (just a thought)
I think self defense is a moral issue with some. Some people are afraid of guns, some do not want the responsibility, some just do not have one because they believe killing or injuring someone is morally wrong, even if their life is at stake.
I respect their personal decisions. However, it is their decision and as much as it is their right to decided against it, it is my right to decide for myself. I feel it is much safer for everyone in my family in the event of a home invasion that the threat be taken down then try to gather everyone in order to retreat. There could be more then one invader which would outnumber me or make non leathal means useless. I see a home defense weapon as insurance. You have life insurance, car insurance, homeowners insurance, why not saftey insurance? I prefer to have it and not need it then need it and not have it. There could be times of civil unrest, or disasters which a firearm will be neccessary.
Thanks for the car tip. We have numerous car chargers for all of our devices. A charged phone while driving will be stresssed. She has grown into a responsible young lady. Very intellegent. I am very proud.
Lol….backwards speak… I meant uncivil rest! civil unrest…geeze
Danny shared ~
“I think self defense is a moral issue with some. Some people are afraid of guns, some do not want the responsibility, some just do not have one because they believe killing or injuring someone is morally wrong, even if their life is at stake.”
Danny ~ then those are people that SHOULD NOT own guns as is certainly their choice! The discussion was about shooting an intruder/thief in the leg when you have NO IDEA if the intruder is or not! You too have no idea how many invaders are there, you may only see one, but there could be 2 r 3, some waiting outside or keeping watch for anyone approaching the house.
I meant to say “you have no idea if the intruder is armed r not, you would have no idea.”
I got my book order today. I ordered “Dumbing down the Courts, John Lotts newest book. I also ordered the 3rd edition of John Lotts “More guns, Less Crime.”
It has been indoctrinated in American culture for the past few decades that owning a a firearm is morally wrong Art. With great power comes great responsibility. Those who chose to defend themselves are the most sterotyped of all. I do not expect law abiding people who fear guns to respect the right to own or the firearms many uses. I really could care less. Criminals know the law abiding citizens objective. That is why they target gun free zones.
Danny ~ I had read before the healthcare debacle that Obama was moving onto gun legislation/illegal immigration as he next agendas, but, lol, he is knee deep in alligators w/health care ESPECIALLY when Bill Clinton stated, “even if it means changing the health care law, citizens should be able to keep the insurance they had AS Obama had promised!” What a bitch slap!
LOL, I think your right about criminals & gun free zones, criminals work overtime on beating the system.
Art- I agree. Until a device is developed that allows us to read the minds of others to ensure that the burglar is only interested in robbing me and not injured my family or myself then burglar beware. I am not bloodthirsty or cavalier about injuring another person but that person may not share my feelings. Once you cross someones inner sanctum, how much further would it be for that person to go to the next step and hurt or kill me or my love ones.
There are almost 8,000 home invasions a day on average and while most do not result in anything but the loss of material items, according to the DOJ 38% of assaults and 60% of rapes happen during home invasions. How do we as a home owner determine that this particular burglar is one of the “safe” ones?
boricuafudd ~ I agree w/your thoughts. Maybe some of the 8,000 home invasions happen when people are not home or possibly at work, imo, sadly those that were assaulted in their homes chose not to have a gun for defense of themselves/family. Sadly, the percentage of women raped in their homes obviously had no way to defend themselves either.
The bottom line is for every homeowner, what would you do if your teenager was being raped & you were in the home, it happens all the time? Or, you are being raped w/children sleeping in adjoining rooms w/no idea if they are next? Call 911? How long would that take? Can you trust they will be fast enough to save your loved ones? imo, maybe, maybe not.
I so agree. It’s gotten crazy with criminals suing victims. That happened at a school I worked at back in 1995. The school had a chronic problem of a flasher who would get into the building and frighten the night janitors. Sometimes he would still be there when the first teachers arrived. The male teachers and administrators tried many times to catch him, but he evaded them for over a year. Then one day, they were chasing him, he went up on the roof and a couple of male teachers and a principal chased up there. He jumped from the roof and was caught because he hurt his leg jumping and couldn’t get away. The police came but they just charged him for trespassing. He’d put his underwear back on before the chase. I didn’t understand why he couldn’t be charged with flashing since there were witnesses.
His mother actually sued the male teachers and principal because he hurt his leg jumping from the roof of the school. I don’t think she won but she filed.
Ok here is a working copy of a short “scary movie” short film I am working on tentatively named Feb 26th 2013: The Ghost Of Trayvon. This video probably presents the most realistic simulation of what the night of trayvon’s death at RTL looked like to Trayvon and George. The raw footage is from a night time walk through done by marinade dave. I did all the CGI special effects for the rain, lightning flashes, and thunderclaps in adobe after effects CS5. I still need to animate the ghosts ala ” paranormal activity ” and embed the ghost “voice” evps. Will share with everyone when finished.
There’s certainly a good resemblance in the houses, RM could very well have been confused enough to try getting in. Until proven otherwise, my opinion is she tried the door or doors, maybe even bumping or banging them. Homeowner awakened, went to door with shotgun. Possible McBride either tried to walk in or could have even pushed on door when the homeowner opened it. Whatever the situation at that point, I believe the homeowner when he says the shot was accidental. I doubt that he saw a young black girl and decided to shoot her. Very sad situation for all involved, but calling it racial profiling is not right, and I think the family knows it.
winsome ~ I agree, it’s plausible RM could have been confused or drunk since we know she tested positive for alcohol, we don’t know how much. RM could have easily tried to open the doors, bumping/pulling them, making noise which awakened the homeowner & he thought it was a burglar. RM too may not have identified herself if she thought it was her home thinking her parents would know it was her. Of course we are speculating, but plausible imo.
This blows the narrative the family/attorney are trying to circulate that she was just just trying to “get help since she had been in an accident & was racially profiled,” they fail to share when being interviewed RM has plenty of help, she left the scene twice.
Nettles ~ you predicted yesterday her home might look like the homeowners & it did, great foresight! I’m really surprised at how much the homes look alike, wonder WHY the family doesn’t get it, or do they & it doesn’t fit the narrative they are presenting w/the public?. Has LE connected the dots I wonder?
I think they know it’s wrong, too, but they’re in grief and want revenge.
It am hearing that the Mcbrides live ON THE SAME STREET only a mile away!
If she lived with her mom, her house was 1.6 miles away. Here are the driving direction from her mom’s house to the shooter’s house:
Total distance: 1.6 miTotal Time: 5 min
1Depart XXXXX Whitcomb St toward Vassar Ave0.0 mi1 secs
2Turn right onto Vassar Ave0.3 mi1 min
3Bear right onto James Couzens Fwy1.2 mi3 min
4Turn left onto Outer Dr W0.0 mi17 secs
5Make a U-turn at James Couzens Fwy0.0 mi32 secs
6Arrive at XXXXX Outer Dr W
Yes, I believe she did live with her parents. I speculated she may have been lost after determining she did not appear to want help. You speculated the houses may have looked the same. That is eerie!
V.P. on twitter did this map of distances between her home, the accident and the shooting.
Danny ~ imo, this is a bull chit story! Just like the bull chit story reported earlier this week which stated “the family wants a conviction” YET this is an ongoing investigation. This story is reporting WHAT McBride’s family/attorney are promoting which are NOT FACTS, but their agenda/narrative! They weren’t there!
The article states the family said: RM was dazed/confused, her cell phone dead, & she was knocking on doors for assistance.
FACT: There were bystanders at the site of the incident that called 911, RM left BUT she came back. EMS was called as was 911, RM left again, PLENTY of onlookers to help RM or even call her parents if she had wanted! There was no reason for RM to go around looking for help as her lying parents are promoting.
FACT: Prosecutors/LE have said this is not a “racial crime.” I believe them. It’s possible the homeowner could not even see the color of her skin but just a silhouette.
FACT: If bystanders had detained RM, her family would be doing interviews & threatening law suits over that RM being detained so she could be examined by EMS.. RM didn’t want help!
FACT: RM’s cell phone has not be located so the family doesn’t know if the battery was down or not. It will be located & the information retrieved.
FACT: Media continues to PROMOTE the family’s agenda, reporting information that merely is their OPINION, NOT FACT!
FACT: We know RM had no shoes on, RM had alcohol in her system but we don’t know how much, toxicology still out for drugs, RM had plenty of people to help her if she truly wanted help, there was NO reason for her to go around looking for help, unless, possibly, to avoid LE since she had been drinking & in another accident.
FACT: We don’t know how loudly RM beat on the door/doors, pulled the door or any circumstances that is entailed, the homeowner thought she was breaking in.
Is it possible RM just wanted to go home to get away from the scene of the accident & LE? Is it possible RM was drunk which caused the accident & she didn’t want to face LE? Is it possible RM was confused due to alcohol r maybe the accident, but if she needed help, she declined it? We DON’T know the answers nor do her parent’s.
Marissa Alexander had her new bond hearing today. judge reserved ruling!
658 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
JUDGE DANIEL, JAMES H.
659 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
ASST. STATE ATTY. THOMPSON, DAVID CANDIDO
660 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
OTHERS PRESENT: CO-COUNSEL: R. MANTEI
661 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
ATTY. FOR DEF. ZIMET, BRUCE ALAN
662 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
OTHERS PRESENT: CO-COUNSEL: F. GAY
663 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
DEFENDANT PRESENT IN JAIL
664 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
HEARING ON DEFT.’S MOT TO SET BOND HELD IN FULL
665 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
> RULING RESERVED; ORDER TO FOLLOW
666 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
STATUS HEARING 01/15/2014 9:00 AM – 608 6TH FLOOR, 501 W ADAMS ST JACKSONVILLE FL 32202
667 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
3/27/14 FPT & 3/31/14 JS
LMAO…must watch!
I’ve read conflicting reports that said the shooter did call 911 and didn’t call 911 (someone else did). This recording of the police communication released today, and posted on ABC’s channel, indicates the shooter did call 911, said he shot someone and hung up. Police respond quickly and find a black female down on the porch.
This dispatcher call was logged at 4:46 am. It appears she was shot after 4:30 a.m.
Here’s a report on the timeline so far found on Huffington Post:
12:57 a.m. Detroit police receive an initial phone call that there was an auto accident with no injuries and the driver fled the scene. Because of those factors, the accident was determined to be a low priority call. According to the Detroit Free Press, a woman was speeding, hit a parked car, and then left on foot.
1:23 a.m. Another person calls 911 about the accident. The individual said the driver of the vehicle seemed to be intoxicated, though the dispatcher realized that an injury may have caused the apparent intoxication. The dispatcher ordered EMS units, but no units were available at that time.
1:37 a.m. A unit became available and was dispatched. It arrived three minutes later, and no one was at the scene.
1:52 a.m. An ambulance arrived.
2:50 a.m. Officers left the scene, after spending over an hour clearing the accident scene and investigating. No one returned to the scene within that time.
4:46 a.m. A Dearborn Heights dispatcher said she had just received a call from a homeowner who said he had shot someone on his porch, according to the Detroit News. Less than five minutes later, units were on the scene at the 16800 block of West Outer Drive, several blocks from the Detroit accident.
Nettles ~ the time of RM’s death is becoming later & later, I too have read conflicting times, a bit confusing. I think I have read the shooting was @ 3:40 a couple of times at different sites. I guess the official time the homeowner called 911 would be official, but I remain confused about the timeline.
The new timeline would put RM’s accident from when she fled the scene until she died at approx. 3 hours. That seems like a long time.
I too am surprised that LE didn’t contact RM’s parents since the car was registered in her father’s name. It’s common for LE to contact the owner of a vehicle that has been wrecked & left at the scene of the accident. Usually wrecked vehicles aren’t left on the street, they are usually towed to a wrecking yard to clear the street. I am assuming the registration w/Mr. McBride’s name on it was in the glove compartment of the Taurus
I’ll lay money down that her dad worked for the Ford Motor company.
1) She just got a job there
2) She drives a Ford registered to her dad
3) She has totalled 3 other cars according to a cousin, Krystal Byrd.
Nettles ~ There was previously a “GM” Plant in my city that recently closed in the past few years. You are correct, I never knew a single person that worked there that wasn’t related to someone else that worked there, those jobs are hard to get. Those jobs pay great especially for those w/little education.
Too, w/so many people being out of work in Detroit & the city of Detroit being bankrupt, it is highly suspicious that RM would land a job before more qualified unemployed people.
It’s to the point where nothing out of Natalie Jackson suprises me anymore. She is now labeling the elderly couple’s lawsuit against spike lee as “frivilous”
Natalie Jackson @NatJackEsq 12 Nov
@sherylkaye Unless I’m missing something, they may end up paying his legal fees for a “frivolous lawsuit”.
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Well if anyone knows frivilous 😉
Captain ~ Since Spike has whined about being “remorseful” to Oprah which she highlighted on her network during one of her featured interviews & admitting what he’d done, he even admitted he’d been “stupid, he didn’t know what he was thinking & he was just mad about Trayvon Martin, he regretted his behavior.” (paraphrased)
jmho, Spike’s attorney is in fast negotiations w/the Attorney for the family that fled their home for safety to settle this lawsuit, the publicity makes Spike look like a bigger moron, something he doesn’t need/want. Nat Jack just won’t give it up, or is she really that stupid?
Yes, and yes.
He’s only remorseful that he tweeted the wrong address…
…and he’s not even very remorseful about that because he’s now filed paperwork to get the couple’s case thrown out.
Frankly, the couple needs to press charges and pressure the DOJ to do the same. He didn’t tweet the address so that his legion of followers could send flowers and well wishes… it was clearly a call to violence.
nivico ~ I agree, the McClains SHOULD file charges, 1.2 million dollars is nothing for the POS Spike Lee, he’s made movies forever, the problem is, he had “ill intent,” just as many ill informed TM supporters & their ilk did that beat innocent people.
If my house was attacked w/me being harassed while living there, I’d be on EVERY MEDIA outlet that would let me scream. The problem is, SL isn’t stupid, WHAT did he think would happen to the family? I did read he paid their “out of home expenses” when this happened, but being threatened/harassment DESERVES compensation.
The problem for Spike’s attorney will be: IF the family DID NOT sign an agreement to NOT sue for more damages, he’ll pay if his good friend Holder doesn’t dismiss it. The family needs to visit Hannity.
They should file charges, but with this DOJ, I doubt that would do any good.
here I am in the flesh heading out to do battle with the traybots
Surprise, surprise. Renisha McBride’s blood alcohol level was 0.22, nearly 3 times the legal limit. At the rate alcohol is metabolized by the body, that means she was at at least 0.28 at the time she crashed her car.
DEARBORN HEIGHTS (WWJ/AP) – Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy says she will make an announcement Friday in the Renisha McBride homicide case.
A news conference will be held at Worthy’s office at 11 a.m., and WWJ Newsradio 950 will be there.
Thursday’s update came after prosecutors on Wednesday were reviewing possible charges against a metro Detroit homeowner in the shooting death of a 19-year-old woman on his porch after police provided additional material they had requested.
Earlier this week, the Wayne County Prosecutor’s Office said it had begun a warrant review process related to the Nov. 2 death of Renisha McBride, who was shot in the face outside a Dearborn Heights home in the early morning hours. The office said Wednesday that Dearborn Heights police have provided them with “additional investigation” material that will assist in their review of the case.
Under a 2006 Michigan self-defense law, a homeowner has the right to use force during a break-in, said Curt Benson, who teaches at Thomas M. Cooley Law School. “But if they’re not breaking in, you have to show you honestly believed your life was in danger,” Benson said.
We don’t expect homeowners to behave perfectly. We don’t expect perfection. The standard is reasonableness,” Benson said.
In certain cases, prosecutors and jurors could decide that a call to 911 would be more reasonable, he said.
libtardh8r ~ This is starting to all make sense as well as the behavior, no shoes, no cell phone. RM smoked a little pot too while she drank.
RM’s mother said she left the house at 11:30 pm to go to a friends house. I wonder if she was drunk before she left home since the first call came in at 12:57 am.
The McBride’s attorney has spun some big lies, claiming she was shot in the back of the head, the attorney kept saying, “she just wanted to go home.” I bet she did, drunk/high speeding & hit a parked car leads to LE/DUI, imo, RM didn’t want help, she wanted be in her house away from all the problems she caused.
Was RM beating the door, screaming thinking her parents had locked her out of her house? Hopefully, we’ll hear what the homeowner says she was saying.
Good point Art. But I could easily be legally drunk in an hr & a half. Now, being legally drunk after the accident to the time shot? Yes, her BAC had to be higher either BEFORE she even left the house or she may have been boozing somewhere from the time of the accident until she was shot which would also account for the missing time.
Sadly, I expected this since he claimed it was accidental shot. I do believe it was not intended but of course that’s just my opinion. We’ll see what happens from here. A plea, or a trial?…
Theodore Wafer charged in Detroit death of Renisha McBride
Arraigned this afternoon. Bail was set at $250K Mr. Wafer is pictured here:
Thanks Coreshift! Here is Mr. Wafter’ Arraignment this afternoon.
If you listen close the male attys. approach to the bench for Mr. Wafer is discussing the scheuled “rallies” and protection because he is staying with his family who the attys. do mot want to publicly give that info.
What a shame to our Constitution that a defendent has to fear their due process rights in open court because they fear for saftey from mob rule!
…and aren’t they supposed to turn the microphone off when the attorneys approach the bench?
They were deliberately zooming in on whispered conversations and trying to get images of documents on desks.
“…………….possession of firearm in the commission of a felony……………………”
I’m a little confused as to how this would apply in this case?
Logically this means in addition to another separate criminal act. For example: you rob somebody at gunpoint, or you’re carrying a firearm while dealing drugs, or you rape someone while holding a gun to their head, and so on.
There is no separate criminal act in this case.
I’d also argue that the same common sense exception extended to law enforcement should apply in theory to the homeowner:
“(4) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is authorized to carry a firearm while in the official performance of his or her duties, and who is in the performance of those duties. As used in this subsection, “law enforcement officer” means a person who is regularly employed as a member of a duly authorized police agency or other organization of the United States, this state, or a city, county, township, or village of this state, and who is responsible for the prevention and detection of crime and the enforcement of the general criminal laws of this state.”
If the homeowner owned the gun legally and was using it for protection, then where is the felony possession of a firearm?
They charged him a felony while in possession because they are looking at a seperate issue prior to the shooting prolly felony assualt or brandishing. Possession of a Firearm during Commission of a Felony
The offense of Felony Firearm means that a person is accused of carrying or possessing a firearm when committing or attempting to commit a felony. It is a separate and additional felony charge. For example, pointing a gun at a person who is placed in fear of being shot is called a felonious assault. That is a felony. A second felony of felony firearm is being committed by being in possession of the gun to commit the assault.
This is an overcharge considering the affirmative defense, and most likely IF he does not plea the jury either will aqui or get him on some version of manslaughter. I think because he said it was an accident he and his lawyer are trying to plea invol. manslaughter. He would do like 2-4 years.
If the family will agree not likely UNLESS, the defense is willing unlike MOM to care less about public appeal.
I am disappointed & too agree this appears to be an “overcharge.” IANAL, but involuntary manslaughter seems appropriate, imo.
Will Renisha join TM as a poster child but as one that who shows young people while you’re drunk/drive/smoke dope & you hit a car at 1:oo am, you refuse people that have offered to help you but beat on doors of sleeping resident’s what can happen?
I wonder if his previous DUI’s were felony convictions and the prosecutor is trying to stretch and declare as a felon, he’s not allowed to have a firearm
I think because the prosecutor is claiming he shot through the locked screen door she is charging him with felonious assault. A felonious assault is generally defined as an attack or threat of an attack on another individual in which the attacker uses a dangerous weapon.
It kinda defeats SYG and self defense laws doesnt it? Suppose he did not shoot her and found out she was not attempting a home invasion and Mcbride called the police on Wafer, they could still have charged him with a felony assault for brandishing. This is as bad as Floridas 10-20 laws for brandishing as in the Alexander case. But Michigans brandishing laws are not as severe. I think it is like 2-4 years.
Michigan was in the midst of SYG repeal debates before this shooting so get ready for another political case.
There was a case I found somewhere (I will find it) where a kid ran from a house during a party because the cops showed up. The kid hid in a guys yard and the homeowner thought he was breaking in & shot him. They charged the homeowner, charges were later dropped because the teen was in the comission of a crime when he ran from police.
Nothing so far is being said about Mcbribe leaving the scene of an accident, or a dui when this happened. Were the police looking for her?
The only thing the parents lawyer is saying about her being drunk makes her less of a threat. Better believe Wafers attys. are going to pounce on these revelations.
Once again, thanks so much to Coreshift for recording and uploading the McBride Family Press Conference.
Sigh… they seriously passed out photos of their daughter when she was 12 years old to the press in attendance?!
Me too Nivico 😦 I’m giving the family some leeway so far because they seem to be more honest and have more class than others we’ve seen recently. I know they are grieving the horrible loss of their daughter, so I don’t expect them to stand up and say they accept the shooting with no hard feelings. But I agree there are some misconceptions being fed to the press already and expect it will get worse… doesn’t look good.
winsome ~ The family has out right lied to the public when they told the public RM was shot in the face when they KNEW she was not! WHY else lie like TM’s parent’s except to inflame the public?
The family is entitled to answers, but imo, NOT to promote their theories through their attorney or to re-create the person RM was as we have seen in TM’s case. The old photos are tiresome as the family is doing just as Sybrina/Tracy did, I have to wonder if the family will plead for young people NOT TO DRINK/DRIVE!
Art, I think the parents remained relatively quiet, probably at the advice of their attorney, until the prosecutor did her job. The aunt has been very vocal, and not always with the facts. Believe me, I think RM got herself into a terrible situation by her own actions, and I think Mr. Wafer had every right to defend himself and his home when frightened like that in the middle of the night. Involuntary manslaughter at the very most.
I just find it hard to have any sympathy when a family runs right out and hires themselves an ambulance chaser before the body is cold…
…and it was painfully clear these folks weren’t speaking from their hearts about their daughter. That’s not to say that they aren’t grieving, but what was coming out of their mouths was just a bunch of empty platitudes, religious pandering, and scripted one-liners. The kind of stuff you’d expect from strangers at a wake who didn’t really know the deceased very well.
And I was having serious flashbacks of Saint Trayvon the astronaut who majored in smiles… they went on and on and on about how she loved dogs and was getting ready to go to college, she wanted to be a nurse, no maybe it was something automotive, (they told Sharpton she wanted to be a police officer), and then when the reporter asked what college she would have attended the mother jumped in with that bizarre response and tried to change the subject?!
Passing out shots of their daughter when she was 12. Sounds like a deliberate attempt to copy what the Martins did. It’s too late for the 12 year old pictures to have the same effect. Her 19 year old photo was already released. People actually thought that’s what Trayvon looked like when he was killed. One of the witnessed actually thought it was Zimmerman on top because Trayvon was larger than the pictures she’d seen.
Im gonna one up my buddy Coreshift: The Cap’n interviewed by ABC News Detroit affiliate regarding the case!
Good job, Capt. Thanks for standing up for justice.
LET THE RACE BAITING BEGIN!
kNOw Truth, kNOw Justice! It is time my friends to spread the word! Whereever & Whenever!
“You can chain me, you can torture me, you can even destroy this body, but you will never imprison my mind” Gandhi
Mr. Wafer has bonded out of jail.
Theodore Wafer bonds out of jail after arraignment in Renisha McBride case: http://t.co/gVF8mwiLTO
Hey Annette, Been a while but have been reading all the updates on this case. Is it possible that Theo Wafer’s 81-yr old mother may have been living in the home the night of the shooting? According to his father’s obituary who passed December, 2012, that is the family home, so perhaps Wafer moved in thereafter to be his mother’s caregiver. Just a thought … which would change the dynamics. IMO
IIRC, it was Mr. Wafer’s lawyer, Ms. Carpenter who told the press that he lived alone. At the arraignment today we did learn that he takes care of his elderly mother.
I just now saw a report on NBC about this case. The reporter said the case was being compared to the Trayvon Martin case, but that Michigan does not have a stand your ground law like the one used in the Martin case. I hope the Beasley attorneys can use this report along with numerous others to show NBC’s reckless disregard for the facts of the Martin/Zimmerman case in order to bolster their case against them. This needs to stop.
Michigan does have a SYG provison. It was adopted in 2006.
It may not be exactly like Floridas but they have one. After the Trayvon Martin shooting the Govenor of Michigan who is a Dem. tried to blame Republicans. But she supported and even SIGNED the bill ito law which passed!
780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.
Sec. 2.
(1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:
(a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.
(b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.
(2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.
History: 2006, Act 309, Eff. Oct. 1, 2006
Florida’s:
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5) As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.
History.—s. 1, ch. 2005-27.
(1)(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
……
Now the prosecutor states that “By all reports she was unarmed” but the law doesn’t actually require that a would-be intruder be armed… it is automatically presumed that a would-be intruder is dangerous regardless.
The prosecutor also states that “there were no signs of forced entry to the home” but again the law doesn’t require that an assumed intruder actually be breaking into the home, only that the homeowner ‘had reason to believe’ that a forcible entry was occurring.
That said, imagine what a drunk-as-a-skunk and high-as-a-kite fugitive who fled from the scene of a DUI accident and is now fumbling around trying to open a locked screen door of a stranger’s house at 3 in the morning is going to sound like to the homeowner startled awake by the ruckus.
It’s simply not criminal to be wrong about the intentions of the person you reasonably believe is trying to break into your home in the middle of the night… and the law seems to acknowledge that presumptions can be wrong and mistakes do happen in these types of situations.
I agree Nivico. Hoping Wafer made some statements to police regarding RM’s behavior, pulling on locked door etc that clearly indicate an attempt to gain entry showing (4) applies.
There is no way she just picked that home out of plenty of all homes she “walked” passed coherently. I am wondering because of the missing time and her BCA and pot that she conitinued to drink or smoke after the accident. There is evidence the home she lived in and Wafers home looked very alike.
Now if Wafer gave police statements that she was threatning different story. I can not imagine the police did not even contact her father the owner of the car after someone left the scene of an accident of that magnitude.
She may have believed Wafers home was hers. He may have said something, and so she may have as well. As it goes yes the law states there needs to be a threat it need be “reasonable” and then force can be met. Wafers attys are not talking. We need to see the warrant or information for arrest then we will have at least more info.
There are few here who are capable of watching for those postings. I am sure when it is posted we can then dig a little further. But until then I have no clue of Mr. Wafers intended defense. As far as I know he may plea. He said it was an accident. Since he lawyered up he is claiming self defense. But thus far evidence against that is strong if it is the truth.
This is pretty graphic, but it’s a good representation of how quickly Wafer may have reacted to being startled by someone being on the other side of the door
The girl was engaging in dangerous behavior. Someone posted that her cousin said this wasn’t the first wreck she was in when she was drunk and that she got another car after each accident. She could have been killed in a car wreck or she could have killed someone else. Turns out that she got killed because she frightened a man who was asleep in his bed. That would not have happened if she had not engaged in the dangerous behavior of drinking and driving and had not left the scene of the accident and drank more and smoked more grass.
ponderingobserver ~ I agree w/your thoughts, jmho, TM holds responsibility for his death when he made the decision to beat the snot out of GZ & RM is responsible for making the decision to drive drunk/smoke dope/drive at a high rate of speed through a neighborhood hitting an automobile.
RM’s family will NEVER take responsibility for the part RM contributed to her own death, they are too busy creating the image of RM they won’t the public to see. imo, this isn’t the first time RM smoked dope or drank to access, WHY were her drivers license previously revoked?
I agree. They will be disappointed when all the dirt on their daughter is exposed.
It was a tragedy that she was killed, but the man who shot her was obviously frightened. There can be arguments about whether he used good judgment in or whether the gun accidentally fired, but it’s obvious that he was awakened and got his gun because he was frightened.
ponderingobserver ~ just think, IF Renisha had stayed in her wrecked car UNTIL LE arrived, she would have been warm, out of the rain since she had no shoes on, & ALIVE today.
Traybots LOVE to harp on GZ getting out of his truck, I haven’t heard anyone state RM should have stayed in her car, well, except supporters wanting the homeowner to get a fair trial.
If you can stomach reading the comments over at Huff Po, the mantra ‘he shouldn’t have opened his door’ is starting to take hold.
If she had of stayed in the car, this all could have been avoided. Thankfully in her state, the car was not driveable.
If she only stayed in the car. True that!
If George had not gotten out of the car…if Ted had not opened the door. That reminds me of what people used to say about rape victims. What was she doing there in the first place?
Renisha McBride, Trayvon Martin shootings: How they compare
Demonstrators in Florida and Michigan have used the same language to describe the shootings of two young African Americans. But the killing of Trayvon Martin in 2012 and Renisha McBride this month raise different legal questions along the touchy intersection of race and guns.
McBride’s driving record indicated that she had a speeding ticket out of Oak Park in December 2011 and that she had her provisional license extended in June 2011 and March 2012. Her license was current when she had the crash. Her license was suspended in February and was restored in April.
WHY were RN’s drivers license suspended? No insurance? wreck? leaving the scene of another accident?
I did not want to get interested in another case, but I watched the video of Mr. Wafer in court. He looked like a deer in headlights. He didn’t know what hit him. One minute he’s in bed sound asleep and the next minute his life comes crashing in on him.
I think it’s common for men who have guns to grab the gun to investigate a noise in the middle of the night. I think it probably did go off accidentally. He had just awakened suddenly and was scared. He may not have handled the gun right. I don’t think he deserves the hatred that is being thrown at him. I hope he gets a good lawyer.
It may be helpful to contact them with any lessons we learned from the Zimmerman case.
From what I’ve seen so far, there may be justification for a charge of involuntary manslaughter if his mistake caused the gun to fire accidently.
The complete total disregard to the girl’s actions and poor judgement that brought her dazed and confused self to his front door is understandable for the parents and inexcusable for the prosecutors.
I hope they’re good.
Involuntary manslaughter charges are reasonable. I still feel sorry for him even if that’s all he gets. There are so many malicious murders. He did not act with malice. He was asleep in his bed.
I agree Nettles.
I just checked the Tree House. Haven’t been there in 2 or 3 weeks. I am surprised there wasn’t anything on the Kendrick Johnson or McBride cases.
Pondering,
SDs addiction always was and has been Obama.
He wants to spend the rest of his life telling the world I TOLD YOU SO about Obama. For me…. everyday is one less day till the next election and the next liar wanting your vote to fufill another backdoor porked up deal.
SD himself has been hand fed bullshit. He believes one politician or one party is actually different then the other. He is happy as long as he choses the lesser of the evils which is pretty much every option we have.
@JaJasTweets@LOLFriendz Sigh, yet once again everyone is so sure they know what happened. Same old story!
Private message i got on my Justice for Ted Wafer Facebook page
Steve W*****
I’ve known Teddy my whole life and I know he is a good person and is not racist. I firmly believe it was an accident like he said. Can we allow this page to accept donations to his defense? Locking a man up for life will not bring anyone back to life. What happened to two wrongs don’t make a right? It was an unfortunate thing that happened and everyone is sorry that it did. But ruining another life doesn’t change Renisha’s death. I wish people didn’t need to have to blame someone and could understand unfortunate things sometimes happen in life. https://www.facebook.com/justicefortedwafer
It’s revenge that is wanted. Our justice system wasn’t created to give grieving families revenge.
That question David should either go to Ted or his attys. I would not on my own accord be liable for defense funds. And it could interfere with bail conditions where there could be a revocation. However, I do commend you for setting up the facebook.
I would hate to see a problem with bail because of a defense fun as with Zimmerman. That’s probably a factor in them getting a divorce since Shellie got charged with perjury over the fund.
The Leathernuts are busily griping about the Justice for Ted facebook page with the usual rhetoric of I must be a racist for making such a page and all the “evidence” i posted on there that shows McBride has a great deal of culpability is all fabricated ( i thought the making up evidence thing was dominated by leathernuts)
Trayvon Martin’s Parents, Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin, Retain American Program Bureau as Their Exclusive Speakers’ Agency.
NEWTON, Mass., Nov. 13, 2013 /PRNewswire/ — American Program Bureau (APB) is proud to be named the exclusive speaking agency for Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin, the parents of Trayvon Martin. Since the death of their son, Fulton and Martin have committed their lives to transforming tragedy into change, working to ensure the survival of every child through education and thoughtful conversations about conflict resolution.
The publicity surrounding Trayvon’s death and the ensuing trial catapulted the country into national debate. Facing increasing demands to speak publicly, Fulton and Martin are retaining the services of APB to schedule and manage their speaking engagements. Both Fulton and Martin are available to speak individually, or as a combined program. In addition, the couple’s legal team of Benjamin Crump and Daryl Parks also are available to accompany Fulton and Martin – or can appear individually – pending schedule availability.
A Miami native, Sybrina Fulton has become an inspiring spokesperson for parents and concerned citizens across the country, lending her voice to speak against violence towards children and the need to build safer communities. An honest and relatable speaker, her message not only appeals to people’s hearts, but is also one of hope and change, exemplified by her personal experiences and endeavors. As a mother, she inspires audiences to continuously educate their children about civil rights and to help them feel accepted as part of an ever changing society. http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/trayvon-martins-parents-sybrina-fulton-and-tracy-martin-retain-american-program-bureau-as-their-exclusive-speakers-agency-231749031.html
That’s wonderful that she is telling parents not to put a troubled teen on a bus and send him to a father who will leave him alone while he goes out of town with his girlfriend. I’m sure she’s telling parents that when their teen gets expelled that he should have extra supervision at home.
Republicans introduce articles of impeachment against Holder
Nearly a dozen Republicans have joined forces to introduce articles of impeachment against U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder, upping the ante on long-running attacks against the cabinet member.
“This was not a decision that I made lightly. Since the House voted in 2012 to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt, the pattern of disregard for the rule of law and refusal to be forthright has only continued,” Texas Rep. Pete Olson, who drafted the articles, told Reuters on Wednesday.
Olson is joined by 10 co-sponsors, including high-profile tea party Republicans Michele Bachmann and Louis Gohmert, in drafting four articles of impeachment against Holder. The lawmakers charge that the Justice Department chief lied to Congress and should be removed from President Obama’s cabinet. http://www.msnbc.com/politicsnation/republicans-introduce-articles
I sure hope that passes, but with Obama still in office, Holder might be replaced with someone just as bad or worse.
Impeachment is the equivalent of an indictment. He has to be tried and found guilty by 2/3 of the Senate. The likelihood of that happening is slim and none.
Welcome to our group Tina.
Sabrina is “lending her voice to speak against violence towards children and the need to build safer communities”? I don’t think so. And “she inspires audiences to continuously educate their children about civil rights and to help them feel accepted as part of an ever changing society”. Now that may be true, but her idea of civil rights and the changing society are using race baiting and lies to line her pockets and those of the BGI.
So, in other words, Sybrina/Tracy have an agency to pursue speaking engagements & publicity, OR, negotiate their speaking fees, Parks/Crump are available to accompany the grifters for a lucrative fee also.
Sad Tracy/Sybrina will never take personal responsibility for failing as parent’s, for their lack of enough interest to intervene w/TM’s drug use & getting him into a treatment program. Sad they have been rewarded by the uninformed w/donations & fees for speaking engagements to spread their bull chit. Tracy should speak on the importance of using a condom, telling parent’s to tell their teenage sons to use condoms, OR, they could end up w/endless kids in & out of wedlock like Tracy did.
According to this CNN bit the Michigan DA has said McBride’s intoxication has nothing to do with her death…..which we all know is utter and complete horse manure!
If she had not been drunk and stoned, she would be alive. That man didn’t go out trying to find a black teen to shoot. He was frightened out of his sleep, got up to see who was trying to get into his house, and either he accidentally shot or he was frightened by her drunken state and shot out of fear.
I wonder to whom she was speaking out on behalf of Trayvon prior to the release of the recordings of the calls?
If Crump and Tracy Martin are to be believed about how they only learned of her existance after the release of them, it wasn’t to them she was speaking.
I’ve never seen this footage before but at 9:20 Matt Guttman interviews “Akmed the terrorist” from GZ carmax days. This just further illustrates how committed Guttman was to spreading the racial narrative.
The McBride bots seem to be even more racist than the Traybots. I just stopped trying to talk to them on Twitter. No one is safe really. You never know when you might get into an accident with one of them and have a lynch mob coming after you. There’s no common sense or compassion.
Looks like the BGI has found there next pound of flesh with this poor guy.
Did they get a private screening of a 911 call not yet released to defense? @JadedJustice
I’d certainly like to see the redacted parts, but what I really want to know is how an Allen wrench could possibly be evidence of anything in this case, and I’d like a good look at that screen panel from the door and the tear in it, to see if it looks like the tear was made by the gunshot, or if the tear could have been someone putting their fist through it and yanking the panel from the door.
Great question! Someone knew she shouldn’t be behind the wheel!
YES RT @JadedJustice: Who provided alcohol responsible for #RenishaMcBride 's BAL .21? They are just as responsible for her death as anyone.
kNOw Truth, kNOw Justice 
“I reserve finding fault, until I learn more.”
Well then, obviously you don’t belong on the internet.
😆
+ 😀
Other then race baiters only looking at the circumstances of the shooter and the young ladies color, I feel what is missing as usual is this situation goes beyond skin color for this young lady and the shooter.
Some of these cases can teach us to hesitate and others to react. Hopefully, the Sharptons will not create conspiracy and allow the work of the professionals and law decided. Otherwise I fear this young lady will only be known as another TM. But we know TM he beat someone so…. No question about perceived threat there! However, this was an elderly man living alone. Yet, the women herself needed help. I must reserve for now.
DAMN! She hit that parked pretty good for that damage, even with the new fiberglass bodies! I was T-boned as they called it an spun around and hit on the bk qtr panel, and didn’t do this much body damage. She must have been driving at a pretty good clip.
Oh, Danny Danny Danny! It says he was 54 – please tell me you don’t really think a 54 y/o is “elderly” lol
Elderly is considered past middle age. When middle age begins is debatable. But the older we get the more we seem to snub the fact that our age group is middle aged. I place it somewhere around life expentency for the gender. I may have to adjust my definition considering Obamacare! 😛
LOL, I have to jump on the “elderly”??? bandwagon too. Since I’m WAY past 54, I consider that age the prime of life 😉
I am looking forward to middle age. I hear it is prime time!
Following.
without knowing the facts about the case, I think that the car accident is relevant. If this young woman sustained head injuries in the car accident, then it could be that she was confused about her address and that she turned up at the wrong house.
I will reserve judgement on the case until I know more about the specific details.
What is not given here is some better explanation of why the elderly man used the gun. Could it be that the young woman was making a fuss at the door because she could not get into the house that was not her own?
54 is not elderly.
Ok, now we are getting somewhere. I agree, 54 is not elderly.
There needs to be a better explanation for the shooting of this young woman.
Elderly???
that was initially what one report inaccurately stated.
As usual one has to wait to see more detail. I did see a comment that the man was elderly, and that comment was wrong.
Who is out driving and hitting parked cars at 1:30 AM on a Friday night? My guess is that Renisha was drunk and fleeing the scene of an accident to avoid being arrested for DUI. I will be most interested in seeing the toxicology report if and when it becomes available.
There are a lot of unanswered questions here, the least of which is why a homeowner would shoot someone trying to enter their house at 3:30 on a Saturday morning. Why did Renisha leave the scene of the accident despite being told help was on the way? What was she doing for the over 2 hours between the crash and the time she resurfaced on the shooter’s porch? Were there any open businesses in the area? If so, why didn’t she go to one of them instead of to a private residence?
It is ironic that the race baiters have become exactly what they rail against. They have way more in common with the KKK than with MLK. Their “vigil” in front of the shooter’s house resembles nothing more than a lynch mob. They may as well have burned a cross on the shooter’s lawn. If the hood fits…
According to her cousin, the car accident on Nov. 2nd may have been Renisha’s 4th accident. Each accident resulted in needing a new car. As she is only 19, that’s a lot of accidents.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/08/woman-shot-to-death-while-seeking-help/3473711/
There are two things that bother me the most about the family reports. Just like the Johnson family. And TMs family.
The family report the wrong information to get a headline and attention to the death. Mcbrides family said she was shot in the back of the head. Untrue. She was shot in her face.
They also claim police told them her body was dumped in Dear Born Heights. Untrue. The family themselves did not know why she was in Dear Born and speculated after police told them of her death that someone in the city killed her and dumped her there.
Here is the report: http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/23865365/womans-body-dumped-in-dearborn-heights
The other thing is the use and application of the word racism. Racism requires an element of hate for a specific race. When someone fears someone because of race it is discrimination or sterotyping, not racism.
It prolly would help stop the sterotypes if police are entrusted with investigations and every time a black dies they stop taking to the streets with a mob mentality that this is “justice”. I feel the majority of blacks really have no qualms about being feared. It is only when it turns out not to be in their favor do they bemoan the concept of fearing them.
The claim even by this young womens family is that the homeowner got scared and shot her. Their contention is that he grabbed the gun without calling police.
The man claimed to the police that he grabbed his gun because someone was trying to force their way into his home. Fair enough. He is in his home, it is 3:30 am.
The police are conducting and investigation to see if any charges should be pressed. Some questions are unanswered. Such as why she left the scene of the accident when she was already being assisted? She left when the people went to call 911. What was she doing for the hours after she left the scene? It is the family who is reporting she was seeking help. That has yet been confirmed.
“Lt Serwatowski also wouldn’t make any definitive stance on whether or not Renisha was looking for help, drawing attention to the large gap of time between the accident and the shooting.”
“She was in a car accident, but I don’t know if she was trying to get help or what she was doing,’ he said.
I wanted to mention the case of Jonathan Ferrell that is being compared to Mcbride.
Jonathan Ferrell, 24, was in a car accident in North Carolina back in September. He pounded on a womens door at approx. 2:30am seeking help. The women called the police making a report that the man was trying to break in her home. Upon the police arriving Ferrell ran towards police who surrounded and tazered him. An Officer then shot him 10 times. The initial investigation said the Officer acted “appropriate and lawful.” Another investigation was done after the autopsy and toxicology, and they got the Officer on volintary mansluaghter for exessive force. It was determined Ferrell was seeking help after the accident and never threatened the woman or police.
However, unlike the Mcbride case Ferrell went to the nearest house right after the accident. His accident was not minor. He had to bust out the back window to get out. Police are trained when deadly force is nessessary and in this case it was not.
I dispute some of the facts in the above post. I need to find the article but the summary is the dashcam video from one of the cruisers refuted the claim that Ferrell was ” looking for help” and compliant with officers.
Danny ~ I followed that case, the Ferrell case was extremely sad, a former College football player from Fla., was a young man that seemed to be doing the right thing w/his life. The dash cam disputed the young officers accounting of events as well as his partner. Thankfully the officer was charged but that doesn’t change the loss of a young man’s life, I’d be surprised if the young officer got much jail time, but at least he will no longer be LE.
Yeah he was doing the right thing and working to excel. It is sad he is gone too soon.
There are cases where sterotypes do interfere with someones judgement of who is a threat and who is not.
I do not ever want to dismiss those cases. But his case should not be compared to this case. The only thing that is comparable is a car accident and skin color. The cop lied and thankfully he was caught. That family did forgive the officer and rightfully wanted him removed from duty.
By Mark Becker and Torie Wells
CHARLOTTE, N.C. — Channel 9 learned some new details Wednesday in the shooting of an unarmed man by a Charlotte-Mecklenburg police officer.
On Wednesday, George Laughrun, a defense attorney for CMPD Officer Randall Kerrick, said the dashcam video of the incident shows Jon Ferrell was told to stop, but kept advancing with one hand partially concealed behind his back.
“His hands were not up in the air,” Laughrun said. “You can see one of his hands partially behind his back concealed as he advanced on the officers.”
This statement refutes Ferrell’s family’s attorney, Chris Chestnut, about the dashcam video, who said Tuesday there was no warning from officers to stop before the shooting.
“There is a command of get on the ground but frankly I’m not sure if that was after the shooting started,” Chestnut said Tuesday when he spoke to Channel 9.
Charlotte Police Chief Rodney Monroe said Ferrell was told to stop and Kerrick’s attorney agrees.
“He was given at least three verbal commands to get on the ground, get on the ground, he did not,” Laughrun said.
Monroe said the first gunshots were from just a few feet away and there was physical contact between the two after the first shots were fired.
Monroe and the Ferrell family’s attorney said it was clear Ferrell was not armed and Monroe said deadly force was not justified.
Eyewitness News has requested a copy of the dash cam video but has not been able to see it yet. Channel 9 reached out to the office of Chestnut on Wednesday night, but did not immediately hear back.
Also on Wednesday, sources told Channel 9 witnesses reported to investigators they saw Ferrell drinking alcohol and smoking pot in the hours before he crashed his car.
The toxicology report has not been released to back up those claims.
Police said Ferrell crashed his car Saturday morning near Reedy Creek Road and knocked on a woman’s door.
Chestnut said Ferrell had been in the neighborhood dropping off a friend and that he was lost and disoriented after the accident.
The woman called police and said that someone was trying to break into her home.
LISTEN: 911 call
Officers said Ferrell ran at them when they arrived.
One officer failed to stop Ferrell with a stun gun.
Kerrick then opened fire, shooting 12 times, hitting Ferrell with 10 of those bullets.
Members of the Fraternal Order of Police are only saying they support Kerrick, but five days after he was charged, some officers are still concerned that is has increased tensions on the streets.
“The conversations I’ve had, there are some people who are angry and want to take immediate action, and there are some voices saying, ‘Let’s be calm,’” said Charlotte Mecklenburg Community Relations Committee Director Willie Ratchford.
Ratchford’s group gets involved when questions of police conduct, particularly when race becomes an issue, and so far, he said he doesn’t think it’s become a dividing issue in this case.
“There seems to be a diversity of opinion on both sides,” he said.
And then there is the fallout on criminal cases that involve Kerrick.
Channel 9 searched and found about two dozen that prosecutors will have to review and may dismiss after his arrest.
For complete coverage on the CMPD officer charged case visit our special section here.
http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/local/witnesses-say-victim-cmpd-shooting-seen-drinking/nZ2F9/
My position is that these were trained Officers that specific laws are applied to determine what is justifiable and what is not. Exssessive force is not ever justifiable.
Kerriks atty. is saying there where commands prior to the shots but there is contention that they happened after he began firing 12 rounds giving Ferrell no time to comply. There is contention on Kerricks accounts that Ferrell became physical.
And up until the autopsy and toxicology tests there were reports that witnesses stated Ferrell was drinking and smoking pot before he dropped of his friend. There was no pot in his system and his alcohol levels were under the legal limit.
Via Charolette Observer Sept. 18 which was prior to the decison to arrest Kerrick.
“Police Chief Rodney Monroe told the Observer’s editorial board on Tuesday that it didn’t matter whether Ferrell complied with officers’ commands or had his hands up. It was clear that Ferrell was unarmed, Monroe said, and Kerrick’s decision to shoot was unlawful.
“Sometimes we have to put up our hands and use our nightstick and other things and sometimes just retreat to handle the situation,” Monroe told the editorial board. “It can’t automatically result in use of deadly force.”
Even if Ferrell – a 24-year-old former Florida A&M University football player – was physically larger than Kerrick, that didn’t justify shooting him, Monroe said. “We have women on the force outweighed every day. That doesn’t give them instant justification to use deadly force.”
In the comments to the editorial board, Monroe said an officer told Ferrell to stop before he was shot and killed, and that a Taser fired by a second officer missed Ferrell.
Monroe also told the editorial board that the first shots were fired from a distance of “a couple of feet,” and there was physical contact between Kerrick and Ferrell after the first shots had been fired.
The contact happened after the first shots were fired, Monroe said. He said police are still reviewing the evidence to determine if it “was actually an assault, or actually a man dying.”
To add… There were 3 Officers there. Only one drew their service arm and shot. That was Kerrick who not only shot 12 rounds but did so by shooting a few round, stopping, and shooting a few more, stopping. Out of 12 rounds 10 hit Ferrell. If all Officers felt threatended it is hard to imagine only 1 out of 3 officers who are trained in defensive tactics emptied his service arm on an unarmed man.
There is no video for the public to confirm what happened . The Judge blocked its release.
Here is a photo of Ferrells car
The other questionable thing is the women reported that she thought it was her husband at the door but when she opened it she saw Ferrell. Why would her husband pound on his own door?
She then hit her panic alarm and called 911 stating Ferrel was pounding on the door and trying to break in. An edited police audio has been released. In it the dispatcher reports updates to the police who enroute to what the women is reporting. At one point the dispatcher tells the police the women said Ferrell was yelling at her to turn off the alarm and that he kicked in the door.
Here is the audio:
http://www.wcnc.com/news/crime/CMPD-releases–229321821.html
The officer only knew he was responding to an attempted home invasion at 2:30 A.M. He knew nothing about the accident. I think he was charged too quickly, and it was because the police chief was afraid not to charge him due to anticipated pressure from the black community. Here’s a link. http://www.wnd.com/2013/10/north-carolina-case-eerily-reminds-of-trayvon/
There was a Special investigation and special prosecutor appointed. The State Atty. General is handling it. http://newsone.com/2722401/jonathan-ferrell-randall-kerrick-north-carolina-shooting/
Every State has laws where an officer can use deadly force. Here is N.C.s
bdivision (1) of this subsection only when it is or appears to be reasonably necessary thereby:
a. To defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of deadly physical force;
b. To effect an arrest or to prevent the escape from custody of a person who he reasonably believes is attempting to escape by means of a deadly weapon, or who by his conduct or any other means indicates that he presents an imminent threat of death or serious physical injury to others unless apprehended without delay; or
c. To prevent the escape of a person from custody imposed upon him as a result of conviction for a felony.
Nothing in this subdivision constitutes justification for willful, malicious or criminally negligent conduct by any person which injures or endangers any person or property, nor shall it be construed to excuse or justify the use of unreasonable or excessive force.
The law certainly gives the Officer a defense, but the video has been viewed an dpeople are saying as Ferrell approched he can be seen even lifing his pant legs to show he was unarmed. If the officer knew he was unarmed then that will be up to a jury tobdecided if he had reasonable fear.
I cut off some of the code. Here is the code: N.C. General Statute 15A-401(d)(2)
However, it also contains the caveat that the officer must believe that responding in kind is reasonably necessary, a standard set in the 1989 U.S. Supreme Court case Graham v. Connor. Then Chief Justice William Rehnquist wrote in the court decision the lawful use of force should be what a reasonable officer on the scene considers objectively reasonable, given the need for law enforcement to make split-second decisions.
As I said above Kerrick is the ONLY officer who drew his weapon and shot out of 3 Officers present. So was it reasonably nessessary?
I’m not sure what the third officer was doing gun wise, but one of the other officers tried to use a stun gun on him, which tells me he must have perceived him as a threat.
This is not a sure thing as in the Zimmerman case. Kerrick may, indeed, be guilty as charged, but because he was charged so quickly, and because we are seeing the same strategies being used against him as in the Zimmerman case, it is very concerning.
I have to somewhat agree Skepti. and good point about the other officers. That is what bothers me most about these type cases, the worry of public opinion, And sadly the majority seem to be when the Race Baiters show up. Sad case where they tried to pull their crap, google DeAuntae Farrow, 12 year old.
Hi Mimi. Marked Tree kid here. I did google DeAuntae Farrow, and read some of the articles. Same kind of players there, including Sharpton. I really blame the media for all this. They are the ones who give voice to the Al Sharptons, and don’t have the courage to question them or their motives. I think we should tax the media out of business like we did the cigarette companies. We should make them put a warning label in the corner of the screen while we are at it. Ha ha.
WOW small world 🙂 Lived close to there when in 4th grade 🙂 I agree media is blame for most all, my opinion as well. Especially half truths plainly in view.
Are you still here? Oh did you see that Damien Echols was at UCA tonight? Would like to have went and just listened, it was just about his writings and how it sustained him. On that case, I think they got screwed. I forever in my gut, felt that that case was another rush to arrest someone to appease the public.
I do not debate the fact the Officers perceived Ferrell as a threat considering the lack of knowledge of a car accident as well as what the dispatcher was reporting the caller was claiming. But as with any justifiable use of deadly force law the circumstances must rise to an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to be justifed in using deadly force. Force must always be met with force unless there is an imminent risk of death. That is why the one Officer discharged his tazer. He missed. If the other two officers used their tazers Ferrell would have been subdued and not dead. The question is whether Kerrick an officer used exsessive force. This case is not neccessarily a “self defense” case. He can however use the affirmative defense. But once the jury gets to reading the law during deliberations and are instructed Kerrick will have to had to act within the law I posted above.
These Officers are mandated to be trained twice a year on defense tactics, and use of deadly force. They have other forms of defense such as mace, billy clubs, and physical and driving training to stop a threat.
As far as making a decison on arresting Kerrick….. If an officer is not within their rights of use of force the Officer and the Dept. is liable. Therefore had the department not acted they could be held liable. I do not feel they decided to arrest Kerrick to avoid anything but liability. I also do not feel Kerrick shot Ferrell just because he was black. The Officer was quite new to the force, he had limited knowledge of the situation, he was getting the wrong incident reports….but once he was there to access the situation is a whole other story. He and only he coild determine what force was approriate. The question now is was it exessive?
Indeed, it is a concern that the same tactics are being used as were used against Zimmerman. Yesterday, I heard an advertisement for insurance for gun owners in case they have to defend themselves. You can take out insurance that will pay for your defense if you are charged with murder for defending yourself. That’s certainly an indication of a trend.
Not to mention the attorney would be suing to have the video released so he could take it to CNN/Anderson Cooper if it made Ferrell look completely innocent. One thing that has always puzzled me, if he wanted help, and she said she was calling 911, why didn’t he find a place to sit and wait until they got there instead of continuing to bang on her door and yell for her to turn off the alarm?
If Ferrell was such a threat, why didn’t any other officers take a shot at him as he was approaching/threatening Kerrick? No one has an answer to that and until they do, I believe that officer was rightfully charged.
In the McBride case, although the homeowner/gun owner had a gun for protection, there was no reason imo he needed to open his front door, jmho. Detroit is a high crime city full of unemployment, empty businessrs/houses, bankrupt, & 1/2 of the former citizens have moved away from Detroit, almost 750,000 people. I can understand WHY a homeowner would be afraid but it is my understanding 911 has been called so WHY open the door? I haven’t read she was shot through a shut door.
The homeowners attorney seems confident he won’t be charged, but I don’t know, I agree w/everyone, we need more facts. I first read she was shot in the face THEN the family claimed she was shot in the BACK of the head walking away from the porch.
Shooting through a door is, IMO, more reckless than opening the door. I think she was lost and thought that was her mother’s house…she was banging loudly just wanting to finally go to bed after 3 hours of walking around – he opened the door and she probably pushed on the door to get in. I don’t know how to post pics here, but her house (mother’s house) and the shooters house are both on the same side of the street on a corner…and look eerily alike.
Very elaborate video that shows how martin supporters view the world
Details are slowly emerging.
McBride was not shot at close range
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20131111/METRO01/311110095/Autopsy-Detroit-woman-19-shot-face-not-close-range?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE
A warrant review is underway. Prosecutors are waiting for a few pieces of evidence. There is no time frame given if or when charges will be filed.
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2013/11/warrant_review_underway_in_the.html
Danny ~ When I ask my friends that are attorney’s about shooting someone trying to break into a homeowners home, they say “you better drag them into your house, you can’t just someone for being on your property.” I live in La., I don’t know what the laws are in other states, but imo, this homeowner may well be charged. The reports state McBride was not shot at close range, so, why did the homeowner OPEN his door if he was afraid which would surely be his defense & shoot McBride especially if 911 had been called.
McBride could have possibly been incoherent, I am certainly not taken a position n the limited facts & I discount the opinions of the family as they were NOT there & didn’t know what McBride was thinking. More info needed.
Up until 2011 PA. (my state) had no Castle Doctrine. When I was a teenager we lived on a floor level apartment. One time while we slept someone tried to get in a window. My Mom called the cops. The cops told her to make sure to drag the person in before you do anything. I was shocked. The Officer told my Mom she would go to jail or be sued even if the persons one leg was out the window and their other leg inside.
I do expect this man to be charged. The reason why I believe he will be because she was not shot at close range, and the owner said it was an accident. That leads me to believe he is seeking an involintary manslaughter charge. You can stand your ground and claim it was an accident.
I wanted to share this yesterday and forgot to. This is a video on Utube I found two years ago. Now, this is a disturbing audio of a 911 call of Donna Jackson who lived in the middle of nowhere, home alone who had no choice but to shoot. She was on the phone with 911. The guy scaled a property fence and appeared to have some type of mental disturbance. These are the incidents in why homeowners need these laws. Warning it is emotional.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5pANZCNC_Lw&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D5pANZCNC_Lw
Danny ~ I agree w/your thoughts, I too think this homeowner is going to be charged. I read of a scumbag criminal left paralyzed by a homeowner shooting him & his 2 friends breaking into his home a couple of months ago, he lived & sued the homeowner in a “civil suit” for damages as he is in a wheelchair.” OUTRAGEOUS imo. geeeeeeeeeeez louise, nothing more dangerous than criminals that have “rights.”
It’s hard for me to believe she died on the porch as it is so small, it appears to be 3 r 4 ft. wide in length/width. Have you seen the porch? The Captain shared a video this morning in which the owner of the parked car stated “McBride was bleeding from the face, they called & EMS & 911 but McBride left the scene.” McBride wouldn’t have the legal right to leave the scene of the accident but wouldn’t it have been illegal for the owner of the car & a few other concerned bystanders to detain McBride until EMS arrived? Sadly, it might have saved her life.
I have seen the porch. But he could have opened the door and stepped back and shot her. I could not imagine her knocking or trying abdoor knob and then standing off the porch. And if she did is is hard to claim SYG because that will be viewed as a retreat of the pereived threat dont you think?
As for the accident… the police recieved a report of a non injury accident so they delayed going. Only when she returned 40 minutes later did they report an injury. So something is fishy with that.
As for your question about keeping her there. I suppose someone could get busted for holding someone against their will (false imprisonment) but if you suspect a head injury a person may not be acting rationally and it is in their best interest to get them help or help them. Either way if someone is legatious enough they could sue you for not helping or helping so…..this is our society what can I say?
PA has had Castle Doctrine. It was amended in 2011 with Stand Your Ground.
I should have said Stand your ground provision. Thanks for catching that.
He’s not saying he shot her in self-defense, he says the gun went off on accident.
This media report is stating that the homeowner who shot Renisha McBride may find out tomorrow if charges will be pressed. The death has been ruled a homicide.
http://www.pressandguide.com/articles/2013/11/11/news/doc528136273cbae891624476.txt
Jamie Foxx Throws Star-Studded Fundraiser for Trayvon Martin Foundation
November 11, 2013 National News
Actor Jamie Foxx paid tribute to Trayvon Martin over the weekend with a special fundraiser for a foundation bearing the late teen’s name.Celebrity guests included Russell Simmons, Harry Belafonte, Tyrese, Larenz Tate, Tank and Tim Robbins. According to NecoleBitchie.com, Simmons presented Trayvon’s parents with a six-figure check, and Belafonte gave a speech.
Afterward, Tyerese posted a photo on Instagram along with the caption, “A powerful gathering of “Influence” organized by @iamjamiefoxx this brother and friend raised a lot of money on behalf of the Trayvon Martin foundation…. I showed up cause I’m uncomfortable with injustice .. Jamie Foxx I’m very proud of you and HOW you’re using your influence.”
For more information visit TrayvonMartinFoundation.org.
http://www.extratv.com/2013/11/11/jamie-foxx-holds-trayvon-martin-foundation-fundraiser/
Finally found a the preliminary autopsy report for Renisha McBride. http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/818001/mcbride-autopsy.pdf I’ll post it up top in the thread tomorrow when I can find some time.
I just finished reading the report. The gun shot hit her just below the left eye on the left side of her nose.
Nettles ~ I have read several articles which stated “McBride was not shot at close range,” which, imo, is questionable about WHY the homeowner even opened his door. This case is hinky stinky thus far, of course who knows what is considered “not close range.” I would guess 7 or 8 feet but who knows?
Of course the family is claiming she was shot in the back of the head I guess inferring she was walking away from the porch. I too wonder if the homeowner could not see her hands to even know if she was armed or not. I just can’t understand WHY this homeowner felt compelled to open his door.
I’m thinking along the same lines so far ArtTart. With gun ownership comes responsibility. He had choices and one was not opening the door. I feel for the guy, he’s in his bed sleeping and someone trying to get into the house would have been scary. I can’t think in the morning until I’ve had my caffeine but when you put a gun in your hand, you have a responsibility to use it as only a last resort. I think he should be charged with what I’ve seen so far.
There is a responsibility Nettie. A loaded gun with saftey off? Not responsible.
As for what Unitron mentions above many an individual have been charged with manslaughter for gun accidents. Thus far we know he shot her on the porch and it was not close range. Dont people think about maybe opening a second floor window to ask people what they want? The argument that he was half asleep is illogical. He was awake enough to grab a loaded gun. And fear causes adrenaline so…..
Do we know for certain that he did open the door?
Do we know what kind of lighting there was?
Is it possible he saw a figure all in dark clothes apparently trying to break in his door and either shot to deter them before they could get in to harm him, or he tripped or slipped or something and something caused the gun to go off?
unitron ~ what we do know is that McBride was not shot at close range, close range would have been a shot through the door w/McBride trying to get in, we know that didn’t happen. We do know that the homeowner had his finger on the trigger of the shot gun, it takes 2 hands to hold a shotgun, imo, he opened the door, saw McBride, & shot her. Then he claims he “accidentally” shot her hitting her in the face & the shot wasn’t even at close distance, something hardly believable imo if he tries to claim “accident.”
imo, this guy will be arrested possibly as soon as today.
Thank you. I don’t know how long the barrel of a shotgun is…but he had to not only open his front door IN, but a storm door OUT…how much room does that give him to lift his gun and shoot her NOT at close range?? No one has said he opened the door…and really, no direct quote that she was shot on the front porch, only found there…she may have made it back out the door for all we know.
Range of Fire:
Contact: muzzle of gun touches target
– Tight: fouling in tissue, muzzle stamp
– Loose: fouling on skin and in tissue, searing
Close: 30″ Neither Fouling or Stippling
http://pathologyexpert.com/boards/forensics/gsw.htm
Looking at the autopsy report, the image shws damage to the upper lip also. Shot gun patterns can be tested using to same weapon so that a determination can be made for distance. IMO, very close to 3ft., not 6-8 ft. The cluster is close. The distances you are talking about would give a broader pattern.
In lieu of an edit button, it would also appear that she had her head partially turned to her right.
Someone here mentioned the partial autopsy report also noted wad was recovered from inside the wound and it appears because of that it was close range.
A wad can enter the body at 8 -10 feet and can travel up to 50′. Some times even wad petal marks are seen the closer the shot occurs. There is no note of those marks in the autopsy report. The closer the shot the more likely a wad petal occurs usually 1-3 ft. Wad petals occur on the skin from the plastic of the shot casing when it is fired. A wad is either plastic or cardboard that helps the shot sustain being fired. There were no mention of these marks.
There are rumors he shot through the door. But there is no mention any other material on or in her that would indicate he shot through the door. So that quells the rumor he shot through the door and as to why there is no powder residue or muzzle burn. There is actually a glass screen door in front of the other maroon house door. So he would have had to shoot through two doors.
In forensics there are four types of gunshot wounds:
Contact wound – The muzzle of the gun was applied to the skin at the time of shooting.
Close Range – The muzzle of the gun was 6-8 inches away from the skin at shooting.
Intermediate Range – The gun was 8 inches to 3.5 feet away.
Distant – The gun was over 3.4 feet away at the time of shooting.
IMO what happened was she opened the screen door and he opened the other door, he stepped back into the house and shot her. He is claiming it was an accidental discharge. From that range, two doors, and shot location it appears there was no accidental discharge.
As far as the wound path it does not appear she was turned. It is just the path the pellets took from hitting bone and tissue. The shot location and the wound path tells us the gun was at least level and pointed at her face.
Range can be confusing because there’s no clear consensus as to what exactly determines close vs intermediate vs distant range.
My textbook (field manual) states that wadding will only enter the body at close range, the above textbook states that it can enter a body at up to six feet, and your source is stating up to 10 feet.
My ballistics instructor gave us a common sense explanation: The amount of force required to drive what is essentially a dense cottonball into a human body is so great that it would necessarily have to be a fairly close range shot to get penetration. It will be embedded in the skin at longer distances, and leaves a distinctive bruise pattern at even longer distances.
Anyway, my point was the AME’s reporting that there was ‘no evidence of close range discharge’ cannot be taken to mean that it was not a close range shot because 1) the clustering suggests fairly close range, 2) the presence of wadding in the brain suggests close range, and 3) the shot was through a screen door. Her noting the lack of discharge was simply her noticing a void pattern.
And boy I never noticed until now how suggestive a lot of the terminology is lol 🙂
I have read several articles which stated “McBride was not shot at close range,” which, imo, is questionable about WHY the homeowner even opened his door. This case is hinky stinky thus far, of course who knows what is considered “not close range.” I would guess 7 or 8 feet but who knows?
Remember in TM case, all the confusion about the range? It was labeled “intermediate” by one agency, and something else (a range of ranges lol) by someone else. Anyway, people were insisting, “oh it was intermediate, he shot him from a distance!” And someone in that case (Crump) was saying for awhile in the beginning that he was shot in the back, which was always known to be false. Anyway, what was TM – a few inches? (as far as sweatshirt hung down) So if that was intermediate, then “not at close range” would certainly cover a few feet from doorway to victim in this case, I would guess.
On this veterans day….an amazing song and music video about my younger brother Ssg Brian Piercy KIA on July 19th 2010 Staff Sergeant Brian Piercy lost his life in Afghanistan. Soldier’s Song is a tribute song to Brian, written by a friend. Available on itunes soon. Available on cd baby right now.
I’m so sorry for your loss David. ((hugs))
We all have a debt to people like your brother who gave his life to ensure we enjoy our freedom.
Today is Remembrance Day in Canada and at 11:00 am we stop for 2 minutes and remember. It’s a federal holiday for many and provincial holiday for some. I’ve been crying all day with stories I’m hearing. We are very blessed. ♥
I share Annette sentiment, I am very sorry you lost your brother to war.
The best memorial to your brother is to fiercely, but lawfully, guard the precious liberties we enjoy, be the “watchmen” to insure that those liberties are not eroded through passivity on our part.
Timeline gathered thus far from articles I’ve read:
1:00 am ~ Police rec’d call about a non-injury accident, woman driving a 2004 Ford Taurus was speeding & hit a parked car. Occupant LEFT the scene of accident.
LE didn’t immediately respond as the accident was considered a “low priority” w/no injuries.
1:40 am ~ LE was called again as driver of the Taurus returned, LE immediately responded BUT when they arrived, McBride has left for the 2nd time.
3:40 am ~ McBride shot/killed at homeowner’s residence.
WHERE was McBride for almost 2 hours? Was she incoherent? A possible concussion & confused? Knocking on other doors where homeowner chose not to respond or didn’t hear the knock?
According to the autopsy report she was wet. I don’t know what the weather condition was that night.
I found the weather report for Detroit. It called for rain @ 5 am. But different areas beginning raining different times so…..
Here is the Detroit weather report for November 2 2013
http://www.worldweatheronline.com/detroit-weather/michigan/us.aspx?day=21
WHAT will the toxicology report show on McBride, does anyone know how long it takes the ME to get this information? She had 2 hours unaccounted for, did she pass out? A closed head injury? WHY did she leave the scene when by standers tried to help her, did she fear being in trouble w/her parents as a cousin has said she has “wrecked several cars?”
WHAT is the solution w/young people having wrecks/disabled automobiles after 1:00 am & NOT having charged cell phones in cases of emergencies? In this case, McBride had assistance from the owner of the auto she hit as well as other bystanders, BUT, she left, THEN, came back & 911 was called again, & she left yet again. McBride’s case is different than the case Danny mentioned yesterday in which the young man was shot by police, he too had been in a wreck & knocked on the door late at night when the homeowner called 911 claiming he was trying to break in.
It’s irksome that this is being compared to GZ’s case, it makes my blood boil. The family putting out lies, their mouthpiece attorney continuing to contribute hearsay, NOT facts, & the family claiming this was a case of “racism,” which has promptly been dismissed by Prosecutors is tiresome. This case has been taken directly from the grifter handbook authored by Sybrina/Crump/Tracy/BGI, jmho.
All those questions may not be answered. But like I said the inital call to the police made no mention of injuries. Only after she returned 40 minutes later were the police called and injuries were reported. Could she have gone to another home and got injured? Could she have fell and injured herself? Was she injured in the accident and initially appeared fine? Was she under the influence of drugs or alcohol? Was she on medication that affected her driving or thinking?
Toxicology reports take awhile depending on what they are looking for. Usually it takes 4-6 weeks from the time of the autopsy. But sometimes they take longer if they are looking for metabolites (break down of drugs and their effects).
I am sure her health history was collected and they will try to piece it all together.
I agree with your thoughts on the family. This happened on the 2nd. They are already looking at all evidence and the possibility of a warrant. But personally I refuse to complain about the inserted race aspect. It is what they want. What do you think “No Justice No peace” means.
Funny thing about that cell, now there are reports that she called someone after the wreck, told them she was bleeding and wanted to come home. So, what’s up with that? http://blackbutterfly7.wordpress.com/2013/11/12/renisha-mcbride-autopsy-and-new-discoveries/
VP, consider the source… Blackbutterfly is the black racist witch XENA! She thinks she is a know it all anything legal. Pot stirrer for sure. LOL and the further the GZ case went, lol she was on first name basis and “friend and helper of justice” with the grafters and Chumpster. Just look, the more racist you are or appear, seems the further you go… look at Leatherhead…and she is one of his “supporters”. She is full of false knowledge. One I am positive of lol, she has accused me of being someone, that there is no way of and it comes from another blog I use to comment one. Actually, knowing what I DO know, makes it kinda funny. But all the damage such ignorance does, is dangerous to so many.
This article has the latest known as of now. It was published a short time ago. http://www.freep.com/article/20131111/NEWS02/311110088/Renisha-McBridge-autopsy
Could poss be that they are awaiting results on firearm tests. I say this because of reading that the man said the gun went off, so I took it as him poss meaning malfunctioned. Bad situation all around.
checking in
This shows a brief clip of the car accident. looks pretty serious! http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/funeral-held-for-detroit-woman-shot-in-dearborn-heights/-/1719418/22879752/-/rylqboz/-/index.html
captain ~ thanks for the clip, that really looked like a serious accident, I can’t believe McBride walked away although a bystander said she was bleeding & 911 had been called but LE said it was reported as a “non injury accident.”
Too, the reporter said “she was shot through the door” but imo, that didn’t happen as it showed the door & the door had a clear storm door in front of it, I think they are some type of Plexiglas, BUT, there were no visible signs of a gunshot through either door. I too envisioned for some reason this was a large porch in which it wasn’t, I assume McBride was standing the grass in front of the porch since the porch was so small.
I can visualize exactly how the shooter felt. I number of years ago i was sound alseep and some way or another a gallon jug of bleach fell off the counter in the kitchen and landed on the floor with a hard thud. It sounded exactly like someone was trying to kick in my front door. I leaped out of bed and immediately called 911 only the embarassedly explain to the dispatcher when i got to the kitchen I saw what had happened and told her she could cancel the dispatch.
LOL, I feel you, I was on phone with friend late one night and heard what sounded like a gunshot LOUD and Close. Well lol it really turned out to be two fold. First what I heard and squealed out was a 2 liter drink bottle I had gotten drink from earlier, POPPED, I guess the plastic bottle/carbonation. My friend was laughing at me and I was catching my breath when I heard a LOUD THUD. There are apartments in our area, I can see but not real close. I looked out my window to see a man kicking in the door and the lady screaming an holding door. I told friend have to call 911 for real, the dispatcher said they have about 6 calls going on it at the moment. So I called my friend back and said good thing I not a drinking person or I think I would be concerned lol. Felt crazy and then kinda dazed. FYI, haven’t bought a 2 liter drink in a long time lol
For those interested here is Michigans SYG code.
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(2zlwno55q402twvmnhcr4eij))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-780-951
Although the homeowner who shot Mcbride is stating this was an accident it is being assumed he will invoke a selfdefense claim because his atty. has stated her client believed Mcbride was breaking in and he feared for his saftey. Not sure that he will be successful. If we look at the arguments currently ongoing with mandatory sentencing of just brandishing and firing weapons this man has a good chance of being charged.
Michigan and New York have the most stiffest penalties concerning those laws.
Link does not work for some reason. Here is another
http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-780-951
Nettles ~ thanks so much for featuring 2 other cases which are both interesting while we wait for something to happen in GZ’s case, STILL waiting for something to happen w/sanctions.
I didn’t get in on the beginning of Kendricks case, I had kept up w/the MacNeil case from the beginning & it finally went to trial which concluded w/the Doctor/Lawyer being convicted of murdering his wife. His adult daughters were responsible for pushing the investigation, compiled evidence, & charges were finally brought when a Detective pursued it & in addition, revealed another crime in which the Doctor/mistress both did Federal time for before the murder case was tried..
I don’t know what can stop families from putting foth inaccurate information on any murder/accident/incident BEFORE LE has an opportunity to do an extensive investigation, countless news agencies report their every statement even when they know it is not a fact.. It’s appalling so many BELIEVE the families narrative/attorneys WITHOUT the facts in a case, but some make their minds up based solely on inaccurate information as we have seen.
Nettles is a great host!
It is unlikely anthing will ever be done legally about families releasing information right or wrong during an investigation. I believe in the end it affects all victims families from being able to keep up to date with investigations as police are beginning to refuse to release any information or limited information to families because they release information entrusted to them as victims.
The only way to counter this type of behavior is if the public in a whole decides to wait for the results of a through investigation or start fighting back against those who insert such speculation. For instance what a disservice to Renisha that her family said she was shot in the back of her head. What a disservice to her as a person to make this about race when there is no proof it was. Was it really needed? Nope.
The only other way is if police departments with hold any information until an investigation is completed. The thing is there are times the police must rely on the public and at times they should. But if they begin to withhold information from race baiters they will be accused of discrimination, or cover ups. As a local government agency there is not anything they can do legally for defamation.
jmho ~ if the homeowner is charged today r in the next few days, I speculate the Attorney for the family will immediately file a “wrongful death suit” against the homeowner. No doubt McBride’s family will be successful, just as we saw the HOA settle that case quickly EVEN THOUGH TM was the one that was assaulting GZ.
The Detroit News notes it will be difficult for the homeowner to defend himself using Michigan’s self-defense law given McBride died on the porch, not inside the home. The paper also notes that the medical examiner’s report there was “no evidence of close range discharge of a firearm” likely means the barrel of the gun was not pressed against McBride’s face. <—–that's bizarre that castle doctorine is restricted to the structure itself and does not extend at least to the property line
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/renisha-mcbride-killed-gun-blast-face-article-1.1513908#ixzz2kSJUOVln
David,
Some states have SYG provisions in the Castle Doctrine. I do not believe Michigan has that provision. However, even if a State has no written SYG or Castle Doctrine (ie;California) straight up justifiable use of deadly force laws still exsist. I believe they are saying because she was killed on the porch and he was in the house the law does not protect him under the States Castle Doctrine. Under the Castle Doctrine if an intruder comes into your house, buisness, or vehicle you have no duty to retreat.
For instance in my State we have the SYG provision. Not sure if Michigan does. But it is not like Floridas. So before you can stand your ground (and we do not have to retreat in public under the SYG provision) when retreat is possible — and you shoot and kill an assailant because there is fear of severe bodily injury, an assailant must have a lethal weapon to apply SYG.
Under PA.s new law, a person in any lawful place outside his home “has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his ground and use force, including deadly force if . . . (he) believes it is immediately necessary to do so to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping, or sexual intercourse by force or threat.” (18 PA consolidated statutes 505(b)(2.3)).
The Castle Doctrine is for INSIDE the home, buisness or vehicle. For public there is the SYG provision.
I know many are like “How do you know if they have a weapon?” My state is OCD. Pretty much They even define fists as weapons. So say a guy is a boxer? His fists are considered a deadly weapon. If he knows marial arts his hands and feet are deadly weapons. Spitting on someone is battery!
GZ would have never been charged if he lived here.
I personally feel the claim that ” renisha was just seeking help” id now dead on arival as we now know she ha help twice before the shooting and declined
I agree with that assessment. However, what would have provoked her to go to the door of that homeowner had it not been for some type of help? There were no other reports of her at anyone elses door. No other reports of a break in. Nobody had reported anything even so much as a dog barking within 6 blocks even after the fact.
Speculating here. Maybe she was lost. Maybe she was under the influence at the time of the accident and wanted to avoid police. So she walked around or hung out somewhere until she was sober. Or maybe she was lost. I do not think it even matters why she went to the door. The man said it was an accident.
More speculation….Given she told witnesses at the crash site she wanted to go home, I wonder if she thought she was home….trying the front and side door.
I won’t be surprised to hear she lived on a corner unit similiar to the one she died at.
I don’t put any stock in the family saying she went to the house for help. She had declined help twice that night if the reports are to be trusted.
I am just trying to consider why THAT house? And why that direction? Help in the sense for an injury no, does not add up, but if she was lost, or confused it does add up.
Danny ~ we don’t know that RM didn’t knock on other doors & possibly the homeowners didn’t hear the knock or CHOSE not to go to the door.
I wouldn’t go to my door that late at night under any circumstances if someone were banging on my door. I might yell from inside my house “WHAT do you want,” if they said they needed assistance,” I’d call 911 & give my address. Since Detroit & Chicago lead the nation in crime & murder, it’s understandable imo.
True. I am just dissuading the speculation with more speculation….lol
Investigation is not even complete and the family is already demanding a CONVICTION! The family of a Michigan woman who was shot to death outside a home after a car accident is demanding a conviction for the shooter, who has been neither arrested nor charged, as the woman’s autopsy results show that she died from a gunshot wound to the face.
Renisha McBride, 19, died early on the morning of Nov. 2 in Dearborn Heights, Mich.
“The family is more concerned in getting a conviction after he’s charged than just getting him charged,” McBride family attorney Gerald Thurswell told ABCNews.com today. “The only way justice will be served is by getting a conviction, not just by filing charges.”
http://abcnews.go.com/US/renisha-mcbride-family-demands-conviction-autopsy-shows-shot/story?id=20863639
Maybe they should just shoot him on their front porch. An eye for an eye. Pitch forks for everyone. Its the 21st century civil rights movement! Tighten your boot straps!
These people have NO concept of the justice system. No respect for it. This is nothing more then modern day lynch mobbing. Mob mentality that what it is!
“The only way justice will be served is by getting a conviction, not just by filing charges.”
This sounds worrisome. There is nothing they can do to “get a conviction”, that’s up to a jury. That is, unless they want to get Crump involved and try to influence potential jury members.
Something really stinks in the Mcbride family dynamic. Some serious enabling going on. According to a friend by age 19 Renisha had already totaled FOUR cars and her father keeps buying her replacements.
Which is why I think she left the scene and refused to be helped.
I looked it up. Michigan DOES have a SYG provision, very similar to my state.
I really think the laws do not apply to this gentleman though. Not the Castle Doctrine anyway.
And to use SYG he would be saying he had no duty to retreat drom what? She would have had to threaten him, have a weapon, or trying to get in the house as he opened the door, or trying to harm him in some way. ” I thought she was breaking into my house, so I opened my door and the gun discharged by accident” is not covered under either law.
He’s going to walk for the same reason Zimmeman did…no one to rebut the shooters story
It’s amazing to me that RM is described by family as “knocking,” they have NO idea if she was pounding on the door or if she was yelling or asking politely for assistance, there was a reason the homeowner thought she was trying to break in. There is the old con, send a woman to someone’s door asking for help, when the door is opened, several men rush in to overpower the homeowner to rob him. That’s not the circumstance in this case, but the family is hell bent on putting out their narrative instead of waiting for facts. They have tried unsuccessfully to make this about race but the Prosecutors shot that down immediately.
Are experts checking for the amount of pressure needed to fire the gun, or to see if the gun possibly had a “hair trigger” which might support the homeowner?
Lost cell phone which can be located, she had no shoes on, & reportedly driving fast when she hit the parked auto. I’ll be very surprised if she has a clean toxicology.
Wonder if the “Justice for” crowd has already started with the “testing the victim and not the murderer” crap yet.
“(a) The individual against whom deadly force or force other than deadly force is used is in the process of breaking and entering a dwelling or business premises or committing home invasion or has broken and entered a dwelling or business premises or committed home invasion and is still present in the dwelling or business premises, or is unlawfully attempting to remove another individual from a dwelling, business premises, or occupied vehicle against his or her will.”
Sounds like if people (prosecutor/jury) believe his story that she was breaking in then he walks based on MI’s castle doctrine.
http://www.metrodetroitcriminallawyer.com/2013/05/06/metro-detroit-criminal-lawyer-michigans-castle-doctrine/
Michigan has a similiar statute like my State. I would not be suprised that they infer his perception and do not charge. But as it stands so far he is claiming it was an accidental discharge. I have not yet looked up any cases where a home owner invoked the Castle Doctrine in the subject manner we are speaking such as perceieved break in, or accidental discharge.
I know there was a case in my state in 2012 where it was invoked when some guy was climbing through a window and the homeowner shot and killed a man. They initially charged the homeowner, but then dropped the charges citing the Castle Doctrine.
I am going to do some case research today on Michigan. Most times even though these incidents should be looked at on a case by case basis, prosecutors apply precedence to former cases. Yet again this is another racially charged event so application can go either way.
I am just on the information we have since the partial autopsy. There still is much we do not know.
At 2hrs 28 mins dream defenders founder Phillip Agnew tells us that stand your ground laws and castle doctrine are based soley on fear, predjudice, and hate for minorities http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8JlsT4lcYk
At 2hrs 40 min dream defender member tell florida legislators that Zimmerman successfully used the stand your ground defense to be acquitted after a fight and shooting that Zimmerman started
While Al and Jesse are screaming race and no justice no peace and circulating the cash trashcans in suburban Detroit we have a black shooter in Houston shooting up a birthday party in Houston injuring 20, two of them fatally
HOUSTON (AP) — A house party in suburban Houston to celebrate a girl’s 18th birthday erupted into gunfire that killed two teens, wounded many others, and caused some partygoers to flee for their lives through second-story windows, authorities said Sunday.
Saturday’s party in Cypress, an unincorporated area about 25 miles northwest of Houston, was promoted openly on several social media sites and drew more than 100 people, most of them 17- to 19-year-olds, Harris County Sheriff Adrian Garcia said. The birthday girl’s mother attended the party at her home.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/10/houston-party-shooting-deaths/3488451/
Hummm. I suspected that is why she left the scene.
I wonder if she had a valid DL?
I learned tonight Detriot is so overwhelmed that yes, it may be ok to just leave your car after crashing it and walk away because the police don’t have time to track you down in a timely manner to see if you were impaired when you crashed.
My sister-in-law is a cop. I’m going to ask her if our police have time to look for those who crash into parked cars here in the wee hours of the morning.
I haven’t read anything about where RM was the evening of the accident until later in the night when she got behind the wheel of her car & hit a parked car.
If RM had alcohol in her system, at 19 that is illegal. I wonder where she was all evening, was she partying w/friends & who bought the alcohol? I don’t think her parent’s have claimed at any point RM was w/them, no one has done a media interview to claim they were w/RM before the car accident, where was she?
I just read from Coreshifts link:
Renisha left her home at 11 p.m. to go to a friend’s house.
Had RM started drinking BEFORE she left her home or began drinking at the friends house? No doubt they will have her alcohol level soon.
Alcohol in system + 2 hours unaccounted for time = walking and trying to sober up before having to deal with the police
“… “There was an entrance shotgun wound to the face, with no evidence of close range discharge of a firearm noted on the skin surrounding this wound,” reads the report by Wayne County Assistant Medical Examiner Kilak Kesha, who ruled McBride’s death a homicide. …”
Seems like a lot of folks are taking this to mean that she was shot from some distance, but shotgun wounds are very different from other gun shot wounds and soot and abrasion may or may not be present.
The autopsy does, however, state that “fragments of wad were recovered from the brain” and this only occurs in close range shots.
The fairly concentrated mass of pellets is also indicative of close range.
Click to access mcbride-autopsy.pdf
And ‘if’ she was shot through the door as some are reporting, that would explain the lack of soot and abrasion…
My million dollar question of the night…now that we know that Renisha was under the influence at the time of her accident, how many of the four other cars she totaled by age 19 were DUI’s also?
ROFLMAO
NicoleSheletteCannon
I THINK HE TOOK HER TO HIS HOUSE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF HER AND SHE WANTED TO GO HOME WHY WOULD SHE WALK THREE MILES BEFORE SHE CAN GET HELP BY THAT TIME SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN SOBER….. IJS
4 Hours Ago · Reply
Read more: http://www.wxyz.com//dpp/news/region/wayne_county/michigan-state-police-now-assisting-in-renisha-mcbride-case#ixzz2kUmMj100
And he was probably calling her a “coon” lol
I’m aware that it is an antiquated slur for black people, but I grew up in the midwest, and “coon” was what we called racoons.
For KJ case – I just read the article which interviewed the coroner – he’s complaining that the body was moved before he got there. I believe he is referring to the people pulling the rolled mat down. Would he prefer that they not have ascertained that the person in the mat was not merely unconscious and in need of immediate help?
I read the comments on an article someone had posted on last thread (I think) – it almost gave me PTSD, it was just like the TM case, so many people commenting who so obviously knew NOTHING of the case but assumed they did, asking why would he be reaching for a sneaker when they are behind him, one person said he’s a football player, didn’t someone notice he didn’t show up at the field house that afternoon? I can’t remember any more right now, but it so reminded me of the TM supporters, refusing to read the easily found facts,sometimes right above their comments in an article.
I’m starting to think that the frequent reactions of “racism!” are actually projection. I’m thinking they may be racists themselves, so automatically blame others as being racist. But not the professionals – I think they know they’re frauds – they’re just in it for the money. They wouldn’t reinforce false information if they were genuine, and if they were really leaders.
And in the minister video – he said he put up his house to bail the family out of jail. Why in the world were they arrested? What did they do? Anyone know?
I certainly believe in self-defense, and I think it’s nuts that criminals can sue you for injuries they receive in the commission of a crime. But I don’t think people should be allowed to kill thieves in their home. Let’s say you’re upstairs and hear noise, you peek downstairs and see someone putting your stuff into a big bag – robbing you. I don’t think they should be able to kill the robber – the state doesn’t even give criminals the death penalty. If you could shoot them in the leg, okay, but I understand that is difficult. Now if they see you and start up the stairs after you, then I think you could shoot, because there would be reason to think they are coming to hurt you.
As far as this current case, I agree with those who don’t understand why he opened the door. I read an article in which he said she tried first one door and then the other. So call the police and stand by with your gun ready – inside at a safe distance from any possible entry point. Yell out that you have a gun and have called 911. I mean, the police can’t even shoot unless they think the person has a weapon, or is acting violently and closing the distance. If a homeowner opens a door to someone, they’re guaranteed not to have sufficient time to judge the situation – and they’re probably putting their gun within grabbing distance of the person at the door.
I hope we learn more about the victim’s family. Very interesting that they enabled her to keep getting drunk and crashing cars. They obviously didn’t worry too much about the deaths and injuries she could have caused. And didn’t appear to have been concerned about the underage (and excesive) drinking. Matter of fact, I guess good old dad wasn’t even concerned about throwing away good money on all those soon-to-be-wrecked cars.
A theory (speculation) that’s been floated is he didn’t immediately identify the noises that woke him up. He went to investigate the sounds with shotgun in hand (just in case) and was startled (reflexively/unconsciously fired) when he opened the door. Only then did he conclude the sounds were an intruder trying to get in since the intruder was right there in front of him. People don’t always call the cops for every strange noise they hear. Many people would just grab a weapon if they had one and go investigate. Only calling the cops if the situation warranted it.
lorac shared:
“But I don’t think people should be allowed to kill thieves in their home. Let’s say you’re upstairs and hear noise, you peek downstairs and see someone putting your stuff into a big bag – robbing you. I don’t think they should be able to kill the robber – the state doesn’t even give criminals the death penalty.”
lorac ~ There is a much bigger picture imo than you are remotely considering, I wholeheartedly disagree. The State DOESN’T give criminals enough time so they are free to commit more crimes imo, it’s NOT the job of the homeowner to figure out what the thief’s intentions are. I think a homeowner has every right to shoot a scumbag putting “loot in a big bag” inside their home. It’s ILLEGAL to break into someone’s home to rob them & it is LEGAL for the homeowner to shoot that scumbag, homeowners nor business owner’s are rarely ever charged when this occurs.
It’s unfortunate that Dr. Petit DIDN’T have a gun to blow the brains out of the scumbags that raped his wife, & 2 daughters ONLY before tying them to their beds & lighting them on fire all the while Dr. Petit lay helpless in his basement without a gun to protect the thieves/murderers. Thieves are spineless POS’s imo, just as we saw the 2 murderers of this beautiful family beg for their lives instead of a death sentence. It heartbreaking to think Mrs. Petit believed the thieves she had gotten the money from the bank for from the bank was going to let her family go free, , after all, those murdering thieves had told Mrs. Petit that would leave as soon as they got the money, she was dead wrong.
It’s unfortunate that Elizabeth Smart’s dad didn’t have a gun to shoot the perverted scumbag that abducted Elizabeth Smart & repeatedly raped the teenager for 8 months changing her life forever. jmho, there is no way to KNOW the intentions of any scumbag that has illegally entered your residence, we know from countless cases of homeowners being murdered, those that enter illegally are not our friends. There are countless cases of homeowners that did as you suggested, called 911 w/the thief in their home ONLY to be murdered before LE arrives.
The problem is, it is usually NOT the first rodeo of thieves brazen enough to come into an occupied dwelling, absolutely no one knows how many scumbag friends are waiting outside, jmho, homeowners owe them nothing
I will reserve any judgement on your opinions about home invasion other then that I just feel that your home is the utmost private, secure sanctity one has. If people have the balls to enter who knows what else they would do to avoid being caught. If some are willing to risk it they certainly have the right not to shoot.
I do agree with you about RMc (do not want to confuse Rick Madigan with Mcbride..lo@) family. My oldest just got her first job to save for a car. We could buy her one. Being she is 16 this buys me more life lesson time, and buys her some responsibility in more ways then one. She will take care and appreciate that responsibility much more if she works for it. If she wrecks her car or is irresponsible it will be taken or she will lose her job because she will not have transportation and she lost everything she worked for. This is all a part of growing up. It also teaches them they are capable of long term goals. Too many parents are stuck in the reward system. Rewarding their kids for every achievement. Does the real world work that way? Nope.
The reward for good grades in my home is the good grade and proud parents. There already is a reward system. Major achievements and mile stones different story.
Our kids make mistakes but they will never learn to become productive if everything is handed to them and if they are bailed out each time. Next thing you know they are irresponsible adults and your still bailing them out. It helps keep them grounded and to make better choices next time if they have to do without from their own irresponsibility.
They failed their child.
Danny ~ sadly, we read over & over & over about home invasions in which occupants are murdered, no one can predict what a criminal will do that has entered your home illegally, nobody. imo, Americans are fed up w/crime. When my dad retired from working as a Building Contractor, he & my mom opened a gun store as my dad had been interested in guns all his life. When it wasn’t hunting season & long rifles were what sold the most, the rest of the year hand guns were sold mostly to those that had been victims of crime themselves r people that just wanted to protect themselves/their homes.
Certainly anyone can choose NOT to shoot a burglar but WHY own a gun if someone has entered your home illegally & you can’t predict what they will do? What if you shot the burglar in the leg r arm & the burglar pulls a gun from their loot bag & shoots you dead? Sometimes, guns are taken from homeowners that didn’t shoot because the homeowner just thought they would hold the gun on the thief until LE arrived. As many of us say, w/gun ownership comes responsibility. I guess no one can predict what they would do unless they are confronted under the circumstances.
KUDOS to your daughter for getting her first car & having a job, RM’s family did her a disservice if in fact it is true she has wrecked 4 other cars. Danny, your daughter is showing a lot of maturity & you/wife are teaching important values, but because your her dad consider investing in a cell phone charger for the lighter socket in her car, that way she will never have a “dead cell phone,” do it for you, not for her, she could always call you in any circumstance. They are cheap, maybe $ 10.00. (just a thought)
I think self defense is a moral issue with some. Some people are afraid of guns, some do not want the responsibility, some just do not have one because they believe killing or injuring someone is morally wrong, even if their life is at stake.
I respect their personal decisions. However, it is their decision and as much as it is their right to decided against it, it is my right to decide for myself. I feel it is much safer for everyone in my family in the event of a home invasion that the threat be taken down then try to gather everyone in order to retreat. There could be more then one invader which would outnumber me or make non leathal means useless. I see a home defense weapon as insurance. You have life insurance, car insurance, homeowners insurance, why not saftey insurance? I prefer to have it and not need it then need it and not have it. There could be times of civil unrest, or disasters which a firearm will be neccessary.
Thanks for the car tip. We have numerous car chargers for all of our devices. A charged phone while driving will be stresssed. She has grown into a responsible young lady. Very intellegent. I am very proud.
Lol….backwards speak… I meant uncivil rest! civil unrest…geeze
Danny shared ~
“I think self defense is a moral issue with some. Some people are afraid of guns, some do not want the responsibility, some just do not have one because they believe killing or injuring someone is morally wrong, even if their life is at stake.”
Danny ~ then those are people that SHOULD NOT own guns as is certainly their choice! The discussion was about shooting an intruder/thief in the leg when you have NO IDEA if the intruder is or not! You too have no idea how many invaders are there, you may only see one, but there could be 2 r 3, some waiting outside or keeping watch for anyone approaching the house.
I meant to say “you have no idea if the intruder is armed r not, you would have no idea.”
I got my book order today. I ordered “Dumbing down the Courts, John Lotts newest book. I also ordered the 3rd edition of John Lotts “More guns, Less Crime.”
It has been indoctrinated in American culture for the past few decades that owning a a firearm is morally wrong Art. With great power comes great responsibility. Those who chose to defend themselves are the most sterotyped of all. I do not expect law abiding people who fear guns to respect the right to own or the firearms many uses. I really could care less. Criminals know the law abiding citizens objective. That is why they target gun free zones.
Danny ~ I had read before the healthcare debacle that Obama was moving onto gun legislation/illegal immigration as he next agendas, but, lol, he is knee deep in alligators w/health care ESPECIALLY when Bill Clinton stated, “even if it means changing the health care law, citizens should be able to keep the insurance they had AS Obama had promised!” What a bitch slap!
LOL, I think your right about criminals & gun free zones, criminals work overtime on beating the system.
Art- I agree. Until a device is developed that allows us to read the minds of others to ensure that the burglar is only interested in robbing me and not injured my family or myself then burglar beware. I am not bloodthirsty or cavalier about injuring another person but that person may not share my feelings. Once you cross someones inner sanctum, how much further would it be for that person to go to the next step and hurt or kill me or my love ones.
There are almost 8,000 home invasions a day on average and while most do not result in anything but the loss of material items, according to the DOJ 38% of assaults and 60% of rapes happen during home invasions. How do we as a home owner determine that this particular burglar is one of the “safe” ones?
boricuafudd ~ I agree w/your thoughts. Maybe some of the 8,000 home invasions happen when people are not home or possibly at work, imo, sadly those that were assaulted in their homes chose not to have a gun for defense of themselves/family. Sadly, the percentage of women raped in their homes obviously had no way to defend themselves either.
The bottom line is for every homeowner, what would you do if your teenager was being raped & you were in the home, it happens all the time? Or, you are being raped w/children sleeping in adjoining rooms w/no idea if they are next? Call 911? How long would that take? Can you trust they will be fast enough to save your loved ones? imo, maybe, maybe not.
I so agree. It’s gotten crazy with criminals suing victims. That happened at a school I worked at back in 1995. The school had a chronic problem of a flasher who would get into the building and frighten the night janitors. Sometimes he would still be there when the first teachers arrived. The male teachers and administrators tried many times to catch him, but he evaded them for over a year. Then one day, they were chasing him, he went up on the roof and a couple of male teachers and a principal chased up there. He jumped from the roof and was caught because he hurt his leg jumping and couldn’t get away. The police came but they just charged him for trespassing. He’d put his underwear back on before the chase. I didn’t understand why he couldn’t be charged with flashing since there were witnesses.
His mother actually sued the male teachers and principal because he hurt his leg jumping from the roof of the school. I don’t think she won but she filed.
Ok here is a working copy of a short “scary movie” short film I am working on tentatively named Feb 26th 2013: The Ghost Of Trayvon. This video probably presents the most realistic simulation of what the night of trayvon’s death at RTL looked like to Trayvon and George. The raw footage is from a night time walk through done by marinade dave. I did all the CGI special effects for the rain, lightning flashes, and thunderclaps in adobe after effects CS5. I still need to animate the ghosts ala ” paranormal activity ” and embed the ghost “voice” evps. Will share with everyone when finished.
excellent video….racial profiling solves crimes
https://twitter.com/lexinelli/status/400647962314801152
There’s certainly a good resemblance in the houses, RM could very well have been confused enough to try getting in. Until proven otherwise, my opinion is she tried the door or doors, maybe even bumping or banging them. Homeowner awakened, went to door with shotgun. Possible McBride either tried to walk in or could have even pushed on door when the homeowner opened it. Whatever the situation at that point, I believe the homeowner when he says the shot was accidental. I doubt that he saw a young black girl and decided to shoot her. Very sad situation for all involved, but calling it racial profiling is not right, and I think the family knows it.
winsome ~ I agree, it’s plausible RM could have been confused or drunk since we know she tested positive for alcohol, we don’t know how much. RM could have easily tried to open the doors, bumping/pulling them, making noise which awakened the homeowner & he thought it was a burglar. RM too may not have identified herself if she thought it was her home thinking her parents would know it was her. Of course we are speculating, but plausible imo.
This blows the narrative the family/attorney are trying to circulate that she was just just trying to “get help since she had been in an accident & was racially profiled,” they fail to share when being interviewed RM has plenty of help, she left the scene twice.
Nettles ~ you predicted yesterday her home might look like the homeowners & it did, great foresight! I’m really surprised at how much the homes look alike, wonder WHY the family doesn’t get it, or do they & it doesn’t fit the narrative they are presenting w/the public?. Has LE connected the dots I wonder?
I think they know it’s wrong, too, but they’re in grief and want revenge.
It am hearing that the Mcbrides live ON THE SAME STREET only a mile away!
If she lived with her mom, her house was 1.6 miles away. Here are the driving direction from her mom’s house to the shooter’s house:
Total distance: 1.6 miTotal Time: 5 min
1Depart XXXXX Whitcomb St toward Vassar Ave0.0 mi1 secs
2Turn right onto Vassar Ave0.3 mi1 min
3Bear right onto James Couzens Fwy1.2 mi3 min
4Turn left onto Outer Dr W0.0 mi17 secs
5Make a U-turn at James Couzens Fwy0.0 mi32 secs
6Arrive at XXXXX Outer Dr W
Yes, I believe she did live with her parents. I speculated she may have been lost after determining she did not appear to want help. You speculated the houses may have looked the same. That is eerie!
V.P. on twitter did this map of distances between her home, the accident and the shooting.
It gets more interesting. I do not agree with the racial insert from the family but that does not mean I am going to dismiss the whole of the circumstances. We just do not have all of it yet. There are so many questions surrounding both individuals. Here is a write up that has some legal speak and kinda what is going on in the area in the aftermath. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-the-people/wp/2013/11/13/how-did-a-young-detroit-woman-end-up-dead-on-a-strangers-front-porch/
Danny ~ imo, this is a bull chit story! Just like the bull chit story reported earlier this week which stated “the family wants a conviction” YET this is an ongoing investigation. This story is reporting WHAT McBride’s family/attorney are promoting which are NOT FACTS, but their agenda/narrative! They weren’t there!
The article states the family said: RM was dazed/confused, her cell phone dead, & she was knocking on doors for assistance.
FACT: There were bystanders at the site of the incident that called 911, RM left BUT she came back. EMS was called as was 911, RM left again, PLENTY of onlookers to help RM or even call her parents if she had wanted! There was no reason for RM to go around looking for help as her lying parents are promoting.
FACT: Prosecutors/LE have said this is not a “racial crime.” I believe them. It’s possible the homeowner could not even see the color of her skin but just a silhouette.
FACT: If bystanders had detained RM, her family would be doing interviews & threatening law suits over that RM being detained so she could be examined by EMS.. RM didn’t want help!
FACT: RM’s cell phone has not be located so the family doesn’t know if the battery was down or not. It will be located & the information retrieved.
FACT: Media continues to PROMOTE the family’s agenda, reporting information that merely is their OPINION, NOT FACT!
FACT: We know RM had no shoes on, RM had alcohol in her system but we don’t know how much, toxicology still out for drugs, RM had plenty of people to help her if she truly wanted help, there was NO reason for her to go around looking for help, unless, possibly, to avoid LE since she had been drinking & in another accident.
FACT: We don’t know how loudly RM beat on the door/doors, pulled the door or any circumstances that is entailed, the homeowner thought she was breaking in.
Is it possible RM just wanted to go home to get away from the scene of the accident & LE? Is it possible RM was drunk which caused the accident & she didn’t want to face LE? Is it possible RM was confused due to alcohol r maybe the accident, but if she needed help, she declined it? We DON’T know the answers nor do her parent’s.
Renisha family attorney admits she was pounding hard on the door http://rolandmartinreports.com/blog/2013/11/roland-s-martin-daily-podcast-11-13-13-renisha-mcbrides-familys-attorney-gives-the-latest-details-on-her-case/
Marissa Alexander had her new bond hearing today. judge reserved ruling!
658 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
JUDGE DANIEL, JAMES H.
659 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
ASST. STATE ATTY. THOMPSON, DAVID CANDIDO
660 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
OTHERS PRESENT: CO-COUNSEL: R. MANTEI
661 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
ATTY. FOR DEF. ZIMET, BRUCE ALAN
662 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
OTHERS PRESENT: CO-COUNSEL: F. GAY
663 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
DEFENDANT PRESENT IN JAIL
664 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
HEARING ON DEFT.’S MOT TO SET BOND HELD IN FULL
665 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
> RULING RESERVED; ORDER TO FOLLOW
666 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
STATUS HEARING 01/15/2014 9:00 AM – 608 6TH FLOOR, 501 W ADAMS ST JACKSONVILLE FL 32202
667 — 11/13/2013
11/13/2013
3/27/14 FPT & 3/31/14 JS
LMAO…must watch!
I’ve read conflicting reports that said the shooter did call 911 and didn’t call 911 (someone else did). This recording of the police communication released today, and posted on ABC’s channel, indicates the shooter did call 911, said he shot someone and hung up. Police respond quickly and find a black female down on the porch.
This dispatcher call was logged at 4:46 am. It appears she was shot after 4:30 a.m.
Here’s a report on the timeline so far found on Huffington Post:
Nettles ~ the time of RM’s death is becoming later & later, I too have read conflicting times, a bit confusing. I think I have read the shooting was @ 3:40 a couple of times at different sites. I guess the official time the homeowner called 911 would be official, but I remain confused about the timeline.
The new timeline would put RM’s accident from when she fled the scene until she died at approx. 3 hours. That seems like a long time.
I too am surprised that LE didn’t contact RM’s parents since the car was registered in her father’s name. It’s common for LE to contact the owner of a vehicle that has been wrecked & left at the scene of the accident. Usually wrecked vehicles aren’t left on the street, they are usually towed to a wrecking yard to clear the street. I am assuming the registration w/Mr. McBride’s name on it was in the glove compartment of the Taurus
I’ll lay money down that her dad worked for the Ford Motor company.
1) She just got a job there
2) She drives a Ford registered to her dad
3) She has totalled 3 other cars according to a cousin, Krystal Byrd.
Nettles ~ There was previously a “GM” Plant in my city that recently closed in the past few years. You are correct, I never knew a single person that worked there that wasn’t related to someone else that worked there, those jobs are hard to get. Those jobs pay great especially for those w/little education.
Too, w/so many people being out of work in Detroit & the city of Detroit being bankrupt, it is highly suspicious that RM would land a job before more qualified unemployed people.
No bail for marissa alexander: No Bail for Marissa Alexander, Case Held Over Until January
http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/11/no-bail-for-marissa-alexander-case-held-over-until-january/
WOW I been busy last few days, looks like been busy here too! Hugs to all, off to catch up!
Did the reporters get notified too late? oOOOPS
H/T to Yancy.
It’s to the point where nothing out of Natalie Jackson suprises me anymore. She is now labeling the elderly couple’s lawsuit against spike lee as “frivilous”
Natalie Jackson @NatJackEsq 12 Nov
@sherylkaye Unless I’m missing something, they may end up paying his legal fees for a “frivolous lawsuit”.
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Well if anyone knows frivilous 😉
Captain ~ Since Spike has whined about being “remorseful” to Oprah which she highlighted on her network during one of her featured interviews & admitting what he’d done, he even admitted he’d been “stupid, he didn’t know what he was thinking & he was just mad about Trayvon Martin, he regretted his behavior.” (paraphrased)
jmho, Spike’s attorney is in fast negotiations w/the Attorney for the family that fled their home for safety to settle this lawsuit, the publicity makes Spike look like a bigger moron, something he doesn’t need/want. Nat Jack just won’t give it up, or is she really that stupid?
Yes, and yes.
He’s only remorseful that he tweeted the wrong address…
…and he’s not even very remorseful about that because he’s now filed paperwork to get the couple’s case thrown out.
Frankly, the couple needs to press charges and pressure the DOJ to do the same. He didn’t tweet the address so that his legion of followers could send flowers and well wishes… it was clearly a call to violence.
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory/spike-lee-zimmerman-tweet-lawsuit-tossed-20876645
nivico ~ I agree, the McClains SHOULD file charges, 1.2 million dollars is nothing for the POS Spike Lee, he’s made movies forever, the problem is, he had “ill intent,” just as many ill informed TM supporters & their ilk did that beat innocent people.
If my house was attacked w/me being harassed while living there, I’d be on EVERY MEDIA outlet that would let me scream. The problem is, SL isn’t stupid, WHAT did he think would happen to the family? I did read he paid their “out of home expenses” when this happened, but being threatened/harassment DESERVES compensation.
The problem for Spike’s attorney will be: IF the family DID NOT sign an agreement to NOT sue for more damages, he’ll pay if his good friend Holder doesn’t dismiss it. The family needs to visit Hannity.
They should file charges, but with this DOJ, I doubt that would do any good.
here I am in the flesh heading out to do battle with the traybots
Off topic, but I just LOVE numbers and I know it drives my kiddos and family crazy. I can envision an eyeroll as I read the following story. And the Daddy is a math teacher lol. Yesterday was 11/12/13. Last of fun month numbers is next year on 12/13/14. Check this out!!!
http://www.lifenews.com/2013/11/13/baby-8-9-10-11-12-13-celebrates-his-8-pound-birth-at-910-on-111213/
OMG! What will they traybots do! The impeachment process for their last great hope Eric Holder begins today! Who are those assclowns gonna find to spam daily about “charging ZImmerman” with Eric Holder removed from office! http://www.politico.com/story/2013/11/house-republicans-eric-holder-impeachment-99845.html
Ipad video cannot be retreived …Traybots cry again http://www.clickorlando.com/news/lake-mary-police-retrieve-zimmerman-ipad-video/-/1637132/22970640/-/fds9taz/-/index.html
Surprise, surprise. Renisha McBride’s blood alcohol level was 0.22, nearly 3 times the legal limit. At the rate alcohol is metabolized by the body, that means she was at at least 0.28 at the time she crashed her car.
http://www.freep.com/article/20131114/NEWS02/311140094/Renisha-McBride-Worthy
Prsecutors to make announcement Friday!
DEARBORN HEIGHTS (WWJ/AP) – Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy says she will make an announcement Friday in the Renisha McBride homicide case.
A news conference will be held at Worthy’s office at 11 a.m., and WWJ Newsradio 950 will be there.
Thursday’s update came after prosecutors on Wednesday were reviewing possible charges against a metro Detroit homeowner in the shooting death of a 19-year-old woman on his porch after police provided additional material they had requested.
Earlier this week, the Wayne County Prosecutor’s Office said it had begun a warrant review process related to the Nov. 2 death of Renisha McBride, who was shot in the face outside a Dearborn Heights home in the early morning hours. The office said Wednesday that Dearborn Heights police have provided them with “additional investigation” material that will assist in their review of the case.
Under a 2006 Michigan self-defense law, a homeowner has the right to use force during a break-in, said Curt Benson, who teaches at Thomas M. Cooley Law School. “But if they’re not breaking in, you have to show you honestly believed your life was in danger,” Benson said.
We don’t expect homeowners to behave perfectly. We don’t expect perfection. The standard is reasonableness,” Benson said.
In certain cases, prosecutors and jurors could decide that a call to 911 would be more reasonable, he said.
http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2013/11/14/prosecutors-mull-charges-in-shooting-death-of-renisha-mcbride/
libtardh8r ~ This is starting to all make sense as well as the behavior, no shoes, no cell phone. RM smoked a little pot too while she drank.
RM’s mother said she left the house at 11:30 pm to go to a friends house. I wonder if she was drunk before she left home since the first call came in at 12:57 am.
The McBride’s attorney has spun some big lies, claiming she was shot in the back of the head, the attorney kept saying, “she just wanted to go home.” I bet she did, drunk/high speeding & hit a parked car leads to LE/DUI, imo, RM didn’t want help, she wanted be in her house away from all the problems she caused.
Was RM beating the door, screaming thinking her parents had locked her out of her house? Hopefully, we’ll hear what the homeowner says she was saying.
Good point Art. But I could easily be legally drunk in an hr & a half. Now, being legally drunk after the accident to the time shot? Yes, her BAC had to be higher either BEFORE she even left the house or she may have been boozing somewhere from the time of the accident until she was shot which would also account for the missing time.
Sadly, I expected this since he claimed it was accidental shot. I do believe it was not intended but of course that’s just my opinion. We’ll see what happens from here. A plea, or a trial?…
Theodore Wafer charged in Detroit death of Renisha McBride
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24959898
Arraigned this afternoon. Bail was set at $250K Mr. Wafer is pictured here:
Thanks Coreshift! Here is Mr. Wafter’ Arraignment this afternoon.
If you listen close the male attys. approach to the bench for Mr. Wafer is discussing the scheuled “rallies” and protection because he is staying with his family who the attys. do mot want to publicly give that info.
What a shame to our Constitution that a defendent has to fear their due process rights in open court because they fear for saftey from mob rule!
…and aren’t they supposed to turn the microphone off when the attorneys approach the bench?
They were deliberately zooming in on whispered conversations and trying to get images of documents on desks.
That would be the point!
“…………….possession of firearm in the commission of a felony……………………”
I’m a little confused as to how this would apply in this case?
Logically this means in addition to another separate criminal act. For example: you rob somebody at gunpoint, or you’re carrying a firearm while dealing drugs, or you rape someone while holding a gun to their head, and so on.
There is no separate criminal act in this case.
I’d also argue that the same common sense exception extended to law enforcement should apply in theory to the homeowner:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(jwqwdnzi4djrgvz3engfi1al))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-227b
“(4) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is authorized to carry a firearm while in the official performance of his or her duties, and who is in the performance of those duties. As used in this subsection, “law enforcement officer” means a person who is regularly employed as a member of a duly authorized police agency or other organization of the United States, this state, or a city, county, township, or village of this state, and who is responsible for the prevention and detection of crime and the enforcement of the general criminal laws of this state.”
If the homeowner owned the gun legally and was using it for protection, then where is the felony possession of a firearm?
They charged him a felony while in possession because they are looking at a seperate issue prior to the shooting prolly felony assualt or brandishing. Possession of a Firearm during Commission of a Felony
The offense of Felony Firearm means that a person is accused of carrying or possessing a firearm when committing or attempting to commit a felony. It is a separate and additional felony charge. For example, pointing a gun at a person who is placed in fear of being shot is called a felonious assault. That is a felony. A second felony of felony firearm is being committed by being in possession of the gun to commit the assault.
This is an overcharge considering the affirmative defense, and most likely IF he does not plea the jury either will aqui or get him on some version of manslaughter. I think because he said it was an accident he and his lawyer are trying to plea invol. manslaughter. He would do like 2-4 years.
If the family will agree not likely UNLESS, the defense is willing unlike MOM to care less about public appeal.
I am disappointed & too agree this appears to be an “overcharge.” IANAL, but involuntary manslaughter seems appropriate, imo.
Will Renisha join TM as a poster child but as one that who shows young people while you’re drunk/drive/smoke dope & you hit a car at 1:oo am, you refuse people that have offered to help you but beat on doors of sleeping resident’s what can happen?
I wonder if his previous DUI’s were felony convictions and the prosecutor is trying to stretch and declare as a felon, he’s not allowed to have a firearm
I think because the prosecutor is claiming he shot through the locked screen door she is charging him with felonious assault. A felonious assault is generally defined as an attack or threat of an attack on another individual in which the attacker uses a dangerous weapon.
It kinda defeats SYG and self defense laws doesnt it? Suppose he did not shoot her and found out she was not attempting a home invasion and Mcbride called the police on Wafer, they could still have charged him with a felony assault for brandishing. This is as bad as Floridas 10-20 laws for brandishing as in the Alexander case. But Michigans brandishing laws are not as severe. I think it is like 2-4 years.
Michigan was in the midst of SYG repeal debates before this shooting so get ready for another political case.
There was a case I found somewhere (I will find it) where a kid ran from a house during a party because the cops showed up. The kid hid in a guys yard and the homeowner thought he was breaking in & shot him. They charged the homeowner, charges were later dropped because the teen was in the comission of a crime when he ran from police.
Nothing so far is being said about Mcbribe leaving the scene of an accident, or a dui when this happened. Were the police looking for her?
The only thing the parents lawyer is saying about her being drunk makes her less of a threat. Better believe Wafers attys. are going to pounce on these revelations.
Once again, thanks so much to Coreshift for recording and uploading the McBride Family Press Conference.
Sigh… they seriously passed out photos of their daughter when she was 12 years old to the press in attendance?!
Me too Nivico 😦 I’m giving the family some leeway so far because they seem to be more honest and have more class than others we’ve seen recently. I know they are grieving the horrible loss of their daughter, so I don’t expect them to stand up and say they accept the shooting with no hard feelings. But I agree there are some misconceptions being fed to the press already and expect it will get worse… doesn’t look good.
winsome ~ The family has out right lied to the public when they told the public RM was shot in the face when they KNEW she was not! WHY else lie like TM’s parent’s except to inflame the public?
The family is entitled to answers, but imo, NOT to promote their theories through their attorney or to re-create the person RM was as we have seen in TM’s case. The old photos are tiresome as the family is doing just as Sybrina/Tracy did, I have to wonder if the family will plead for young people NOT TO DRINK/DRIVE!
Art, I think the parents remained relatively quiet, probably at the advice of their attorney, until the prosecutor did her job. The aunt has been very vocal, and not always with the facts. Believe me, I think RM got herself into a terrible situation by her own actions, and I think Mr. Wafer had every right to defend himself and his home when frightened like that in the middle of the night. Involuntary manslaughter at the very most.
I just find it hard to have any sympathy when a family runs right out and hires themselves an ambulance chaser before the body is cold…
…and it was painfully clear these folks weren’t speaking from their hearts about their daughter. That’s not to say that they aren’t grieving, but what was coming out of their mouths was just a bunch of empty platitudes, religious pandering, and scripted one-liners. The kind of stuff you’d expect from strangers at a wake who didn’t really know the deceased very well.
And I was having serious flashbacks of Saint Trayvon the astronaut who majored in smiles… they went on and on and on about how she loved dogs and was getting ready to go to college, she wanted to be a nurse, no maybe it was something automotive, (they told Sharpton she wanted to be a police officer), and then when the reporter asked what college she would have attended the mother jumped in with that bizarre response and tried to change the subject?!
Passing out shots of their daughter when she was 12. Sounds like a deliberate attempt to copy what the Martins did. It’s too late for the 12 year old pictures to have the same effect. Her 19 year old photo was already released. People actually thought that’s what Trayvon looked like when he was killed. One of the witnessed actually thought it was Zimmerman on top because Trayvon was larger than the pictures she’d seen.
Im gonna one up my buddy Coreshift: The Cap’n interviewed by ABC News Detroit affiliate regarding the case!
Good job, Capt. Thanks for standing up for justice.
LET THE RACE BAITING BEGIN!
kNOw Truth, kNOw Justice! It is time my friends to spread the word! Whereever & Whenever!
“You can chain me, you can torture me, you can even destroy this body, but you will never imprison my mind” Gandhi
Mr. Wafer has bonded out of jail.
Hey Annette, Been a while but have been reading all the updates on this case. Is it possible that Theo Wafer’s 81-yr old mother may have been living in the home the night of the shooting? According to his father’s obituary who passed December, 2012, that is the family home, so perhaps Wafer moved in thereafter to be his mother’s caregiver. Just a thought … which would change the dynamics. IMO
IIRC, it was Mr. Wafer’s lawyer, Ms. Carpenter who told the press that he lived alone. At the arraignment today we did learn that he takes care of his elderly mother.
I just now saw a report on NBC about this case. The reporter said the case was being compared to the Trayvon Martin case, but that Michigan does not have a stand your ground law like the one used in the Martin case. I hope the Beasley attorneys can use this report along with numerous others to show NBC’s reckless disregard for the facts of the Martin/Zimmerman case in order to bolster their case against them. This needs to stop.
Michigan does have a SYG provison. It was adopted in 2006.
It may not be exactly like Floridas but they have one. After the Trayvon Martin shooting the Govenor of Michigan who is a Dem. tried to blame Republicans. But she supported and even SIGNED the bill ito law which passed!
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/04/02/Democrat-Gov-Granholm-Signed-Stand-Your-Ground-Gun-Law-in-2006-Blames-Republicans-Now
Here are the two States laws:
Michigan’s:
780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.
Sec. 2.
(1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:
(a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.
(b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.
(2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.
History: 2006, Act 309, Eff. Oct. 1, 2006
Florida’s:
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5) As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.
History.—s. 1, ch. 2005-27.
(1)(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
……
Now the prosecutor states that “By all reports she was unarmed” but the law doesn’t actually require that a would-be intruder be armed… it is automatically presumed that a would-be intruder is dangerous regardless.
The prosecutor also states that “there were no signs of forced entry to the home” but again the law doesn’t require that an assumed intruder actually be breaking into the home, only that the homeowner ‘had reason to believe’ that a forcible entry was occurring.
That said, imagine what a drunk-as-a-skunk and high-as-a-kite fugitive who fled from the scene of a DUI accident and is now fumbling around trying to open a locked screen door of a stranger’s house at 3 in the morning is going to sound like to the homeowner startled awake by the ruckus.
It’s simply not criminal to be wrong about the intentions of the person you reasonably believe is trying to break into your home in the middle of the night… and the law seems to acknowledge that presumptions can be wrong and mistakes do happen in these types of situations.
I agree Nivico. Hoping Wafer made some statements to police regarding RM’s behavior, pulling on locked door etc that clearly indicate an attempt to gain entry showing (4) applies.
There is no way she just picked that home out of plenty of all homes she “walked” passed coherently. I am wondering because of the missing time and her BCA and pot that she conitinued to drink or smoke after the accident. There is evidence the home she lived in and Wafers home looked very alike.
Now if Wafer gave police statements that she was threatning different story. I can not imagine the police did not even contact her father the owner of the car after someone left the scene of an accident of that magnitude.
She may have believed Wafers home was hers. He may have said something, and so she may have as well. As it goes yes the law states there needs to be a threat it need be “reasonable” and then force can be met. Wafers attys are not talking. We need to see the warrant or information for arrest then we will have at least more info.
There are few here who are capable of watching for those postings. I am sure when it is posted we can then dig a little further. But until then I have no clue of Mr. Wafers intended defense. As far as I know he may plea. He said it was an accident. Since he lawyered up he is claiming self defense. But thus far evidence against that is strong if it is the truth.
This is pretty graphic, but it’s a good representation of how quickly Wafer may have reacted to being startled by someone being on the other side of the door
The girl was engaging in dangerous behavior. Someone posted that her cousin said this wasn’t the first wreck she was in when she was drunk and that she got another car after each accident. She could have been killed in a car wreck or she could have killed someone else. Turns out that she got killed because she frightened a man who was asleep in his bed. That would not have happened if she had not engaged in the dangerous behavior of drinking and driving and had not left the scene of the accident and drank more and smoked more grass.
ponderingobserver ~ I agree w/your thoughts, jmho, TM holds responsibility for his death when he made the decision to beat the snot out of GZ & RM is responsible for making the decision to drive drunk/smoke dope/drive at a high rate of speed through a neighborhood hitting an automobile.
RM’s family will NEVER take responsibility for the part RM contributed to her own death, they are too busy creating the image of RM they won’t the public to see. imo, this isn’t the first time RM smoked dope or drank to access, WHY were her drivers license previously revoked?
I agree. They will be disappointed when all the dirt on their daughter is exposed.
It was a tragedy that she was killed, but the man who shot her was obviously frightened. There can be arguments about whether he used good judgment in or whether the gun accidentally fired, but it’s obvious that he was awakened and got his gun because he was frightened.
ponderingobserver ~ just think, IF Renisha had stayed in her wrecked car UNTIL LE arrived, she would have been warm, out of the rain since she had no shoes on, & ALIVE today.
Traybots LOVE to harp on GZ getting out of his truck, I haven’t heard anyone state RM should have stayed in her car, well, except supporters wanting the homeowner to get a fair trial.
If you can stomach reading the comments over at Huff Po, the mantra ‘he shouldn’t have opened his door’ is starting to take hold.
If she had of stayed in the car, this all could have been avoided. Thankfully in her state, the car was not driveable.
If she only stayed in the car. True that!
If George had not gotten out of the car…if Ted had not opened the door. That reminds me of what people used to say about rape victims. What was she doing there in the first place?
Renisha McBride, Trayvon Martin shootings: How they compare
Demonstrators in Florida and Michigan have used the same language to describe the shootings of two young African Americans. But the killing of Trayvon Martin in 2012 and Renisha McBride this month raise different legal questions along the touchy intersection of race and guns.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/nationworld/la-na-nn-renisha-mcbride-trayvon-martin-20131115,0,1737129.story
(paragraph on Reniha’s driving record)
McBride’s driving record indicated that she had a speeding ticket out of Oak Park in December 2011 and that she had her provisional license extended in June 2011 and March 2012. Her license was current when she had the crash. Her license was suspended in February and was restored in April.
From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20131114/METRO01/311140105#ixzz2kpchdjau
WHY were RN’s drivers license suspended? No insurance? wreck? leaving the scene of another accident?
I did not want to get interested in another case, but I watched the video of Mr. Wafer in court. He looked like a deer in headlights. He didn’t know what hit him. One minute he’s in bed sound asleep and the next minute his life comes crashing in on him.
I think it’s common for men who have guns to grab the gun to investigate a noise in the middle of the night. I think it probably did go off accidentally. He had just awakened suddenly and was scared. He may not have handled the gun right. I don’t think he deserves the hatred that is being thrown at him. I hope he gets a good lawyer.
Mr. Wafer has a father/daughter team of lawyers.
http://carpenterlaw.us/
It may be helpful to contact them with any lessons we learned from the Zimmerman case.
From what I’ve seen so far, there may be justification for a charge of involuntary manslaughter if his mistake caused the gun to fire accidently.
The complete total disregard to the girl’s actions and poor judgement that brought her dazed and confused self to his front door is understandable for the parents and inexcusable for the prosecutors.
I hope they’re good.
Involuntary manslaughter charges are reasonable. I still feel sorry for him even if that’s all he gets. There are so many malicious murders. He did not act with malice. He was asleep in his bed.
I agree Nettles.
I just checked the Tree House. Haven’t been there in 2 or 3 weeks. I am surprised there wasn’t anything on the Kendrick Johnson or McBride cases.
Pondering,
SDs addiction always was and has been Obama.
He wants to spend the rest of his life telling the world I TOLD YOU SO about Obama. For me…. everyday is one less day till the next election and the next liar wanting your vote to fufill another backdoor porked up deal.
SD himself has been hand fed bullshit. He believes one politician or one party is actually different then the other. He is happy as long as he choses the lesser of the evils which is pretty much every option we have.
Private message i got on my Justice for Ted Wafer Facebook page
Steve W*****
I’ve known Teddy my whole life and I know he is a good person and is not racist. I firmly believe it was an accident like he said. Can we allow this page to accept donations to his defense? Locking a man up for life will not bring anyone back to life. What happened to two wrongs don’t make a right? It was an unfortunate thing that happened and everyone is sorry that it did. But ruining another life doesn’t change Renisha’s death. I wish people didn’t need to have to blame someone and could understand unfortunate things sometimes happen in life.
https://www.facebook.com/justicefortedwafer
It’s revenge that is wanted. Our justice system wasn’t created to give grieving families revenge.
That question David should either go to Ted or his attys. I would not on my own accord be liable for defense funds. And it could interfere with bail conditions where there could be a revocation. However, I do commend you for setting up the facebook.
I would hate to see a problem with bail because of a defense fun as with Zimmerman. That’s probably a factor in them getting a divorce since Shellie got charged with perjury over the fund.
The Leathernuts are busily griping about the Justice for Ted facebook page with the usual rhetoric of I must be a racist for making such a page and all the “evidence” i posted on there that shows McBride has a great deal of culpability is all fabricated ( i thought the making up evidence thing was dominated by leathernuts)
Trayvon Martin’s Parents, Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin, Retain American Program Bureau as Their Exclusive Speakers’ Agency.
NEWTON, Mass., Nov. 13, 2013 /PRNewswire/ — American Program Bureau (APB) is proud to be named the exclusive speaking agency for Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin, the parents of Trayvon Martin. Since the death of their son, Fulton and Martin have committed their lives to transforming tragedy into change, working to ensure the survival of every child through education and thoughtful conversations about conflict resolution.
The publicity surrounding Trayvon’s death and the ensuing trial catapulted the country into national debate. Facing increasing demands to speak publicly, Fulton and Martin are retaining the services of APB to schedule and manage their speaking engagements. Both Fulton and Martin are available to speak individually, or as a combined program. In addition, the couple’s legal team of Benjamin Crump and Daryl Parks also are available to accompany Fulton and Martin – or can appear individually – pending schedule availability.
A Miami native, Sybrina Fulton has become an inspiring spokesperson for parents and concerned citizens across the country, lending her voice to speak against violence towards children and the need to build safer communities. An honest and relatable speaker, her message not only appeals to people’s hearts, but is also one of hope and change, exemplified by her personal experiences and endeavors. As a mother, she inspires audiences to continuously educate their children about civil rights and to help them feel accepted as part of an ever changing society.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/trayvon-martins-parents-sybrina-fulton-and-tracy-martin-retain-american-program-bureau-as-their-exclusive-speakers-agency-231749031.html
That’s wonderful that she is telling parents not to put a troubled teen on a bus and send him to a father who will leave him alone while he goes out of town with his girlfriend. I’m sure she’s telling parents that when their teen gets expelled that he should have extra supervision at home.
Republicans introduce articles of impeachment against Holder
Nearly a dozen Republicans have joined forces to introduce articles of impeachment against U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder, upping the ante on long-running attacks against the cabinet member.
“This was not a decision that I made lightly. Since the House voted in 2012 to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt, the pattern of disregard for the rule of law and refusal to be forthright has only continued,” Texas Rep. Pete Olson, who drafted the articles, told Reuters on Wednesday.
Olson is joined by 10 co-sponsors, including high-profile tea party Republicans Michele Bachmann and Louis Gohmert, in drafting four articles of impeachment against Holder. The lawmakers charge that the Justice Department chief lied to Congress and should be removed from President Obama’s cabinet.
http://www.msnbc.com/politicsnation/republicans-introduce-articles
I sure hope that passes, but with Obama still in office, Holder might be replaced with someone just as bad or worse.
Impeachment is the equivalent of an indictment. He has to be tried and found guilty by 2/3 of the Senate. The likelihood of that happening is slim and none.
Welcome to our group Tina.
Sabrina is “lending her voice to speak against violence towards children and the need to build safer communities”? I don’t think so. And “she inspires audiences to continuously educate their children about civil rights and to help them feel accepted as part of an ever changing society”. Now that may be true, but her idea of civil rights and the changing society are using race baiting and lies to line her pockets and those of the BGI.
So, in other words, Sybrina/Tracy have an agency to pursue speaking engagements & publicity, OR, negotiate their speaking fees, Parks/Crump are available to accompany the grifters for a lucrative fee also.
Sad Tracy/Sybrina will never take personal responsibility for failing as parent’s, for their lack of enough interest to intervene w/TM’s drug use & getting him into a treatment program. Sad they have been rewarded by the uninformed w/donations & fees for speaking engagements to spread their bull chit. Tracy should speak on the importance of using a condom, telling parent’s to tell their teenage sons to use condoms, OR, they could end up w/endless kids in & out of wedlock like Tracy did.
According to this CNN bit the Michigan DA has said McBride’s intoxication has nothing to do with her death…..which we all know is utter and complete horse manure!
If she had not been drunk and stoned, she would be alive. That man didn’t go out trying to find a black teen to shoot. He was frightened out of his sleep, got up to see who was trying to get into his house, and either he accidentally shot or he was frightened by her drunken state and shot out of fear.
Rachel Jeantel tells Al Charlatan that she was speaking out on behalf of trayvon before the NEN and 911 tapes were even released http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/07/18/al_sharpton_interviews_rachel_jeantel_on_msnbc.html#.UohTfoeNISE.facebook
Transcripts of PoliticsNation:
Wednesday, July 17th, 2013:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/52509409/ns/msnbc-politicsnation/#.UooBSydl3Hs
Thursday, June 27th, 2013:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/52340847/ns/msnbc-politicsnation/#.UooBVCdl3Hs
I wonder to whom she was speaking out on behalf of Trayvon prior to the release of the recordings of the calls?
If Crump and Tracy Martin are to be believed about how they only learned of her existance after the release of them, it wasn’t to them she was speaking.
I’ve never seen this footage before but at 9:20 Matt Guttman interviews “Akmed the terrorist” from GZ carmax days. This just further illustrates how committed Guttman was to spreading the racial narrative.
comment in the New Yorker –
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/11/the-killing-of-renisha-mcbride.html?currentPage=all
The McBride bots seem to be even more racist than the Traybots. I just stopped trying to talk to them on Twitter. No one is safe really. You never know when you might get into an accident with one of them and have a lynch mob coming after you. There’s no common sense or compassion.
Looks like the BGI has found there next pound of flesh with this poor guy.
Here’s a redacted copy of the police report for this case:
Click to access dearborn-case-report.pdf
I’d certainly like to see the redacted parts, but what I really want to know is how an Allen wrench could possibly be evidence of anything in this case, and I’d like a good look at that screen panel from the door and the tear in it, to see if it looks like the tear was made by the gunshot, or if the tear could have been someone putting their fist through it and yanking the panel from the door.
Great question! Someone knew she shouldn’t be behind the wheel!
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