Bravo Mr. West! You did a great job questioning the State’s “experts” yesterday.
The hearing yesterday was a Frye hearing and didn’t complete. Amazingly, we heard that one expert won’t have his report ready for a couple weeks. That was Dr. Reich. He has been working on the GZ case since early June 2012 for the State. He had been hired in May 2012 by the Washington Post.
I thought this would give the continuance needed because clearly, the state isn’t ready yet either. Of course, Mr. Mantei was charged with the experts. On the defense side, it was Mr. West. On getting ready for jury questions come Monday the State will no doubt have expert jury consultants to help them and perhaps a lawyer in the office that is charged with this area. Again, Mr. O’Mara and Mr. West will have to be involved with jury consultants, if the defense fund can afford one.
I suspect the rush to trial now, is more about protecting the careers of those who brought charges under these facts. The longer they give O’Mara/West to delve into what occurred here, the more vulnerable some professionals could be. The Frey hearing will continue tomorrow at 9:30 am. After hearing these “experts”, I don’t think they are credible and putting their opinions in front of the jury shouldn’t be done. However, I expect the Judge to be consistent in her help of the State and allow the testimony. The jury is smart and they can figure it out. The very biased HLN had lawyers on this afternoon who were laughing at the “experts”, and asking “Are you kidding me?” I don’t know what the State of Florida is thinking but it’s clear, the 4th District’s SAO is going to embarrass the state and because the whole world is watching, the world will point to this case as an example why the United States should not judge other systems when its own needs attention.
I will be on facebook discussing the hearing as I watch it live online. The link to the facebook page is here. I’m not sure if the page is being attacked or if its a facebook problem but the thread we were talking on got deleted 3 times. You are welcome to discuss the hearing here as well. I’ll get an email whenever someone posts. Best of luck to the defense team in court today.
To the Zimmerman family, please know there are many that are with you today and you are in our thoughts and prayers. It had to be so hard for you to hear those screams. Just concentrate on the fact that George lived through it.
For those who are able, please make a donation to the defense fund. Thank you for helping. Last we heard (2 days ago) the fund was at $77K. The goal is to get $120K.
For newcomers, please know that racist remarks will be trashed. If you are presenting yourself as a George Zimmerman supporter, please keep in mind this man is in a fight for his life. Conduct yourself in a way that won’t bring heartache and/or embarrassment to the Zimmerman family.
Anyone who wants to share something privately, email me at nettles@bell.net
Hi Nettles! West asked a question today that completely destroyed one of the audio experts.
Hi and Welcome. I thought West did a great job today.
What was the question?
Just glad to be here!
i remember your posts on facebook. you are always fair and patient with those who support the prosecution. i don’t have that kind of patience myself. thanks for starting your own blog.
Thank you. I’m glad you found it.
There is NO way that the defense can allow Nelson to say that anything about her friend BLDR will have to wait without at least telling her WHY it cannot wait.
Is she really going to allow a proven lying criminal to proceed to prosecute George? The other judges and attorneys should be calling for her head after seeing this. Otherwise, they are no better.
How long should today’s hearing last and is it possible other issues will be argued/heard?
I think the only other motion left to attend to is the defense’s motion in limine. It will likely get taken care of after the Frye hearing is done.
jordan2222 – I am truly shocked Judge N has put off the hearing on the sanctions/whistle blower on BDLR until after the trial. That sucks, I too am offended that the very person ACCUSED of screwing GZ/defense is continuing to participate in the lynching. That seems unreasonable to me.
In KC’s case, Baez got sanctioned & had to pay a fine during the trial, Baez had 2 or 3 complaints to the Fla. Bar & 1 of them was from a sitting Judge. Chief Judge Belvin Perry promised to address several more infractions against Baez after the trial & I think some could have included sanctions but when KC/Baez won the case, it left everyone shocked. As much as I like Chief Belvin Perry, imo, Baez should have been addressed on the infractions as Judge Perry promised after the trial, I don’t think they got addressed.
I am forever disappointed in Judge N, even after the trial, I don’t think she will do anything, imo, she’s hoping the media won’t be focused on BDLR’s problems INSTEAD of addressing the dishonesty in the SAO office.
Will the whistle blowers testify at trial or have they been shipped in a crate to china?
yeah, but don’t forget, Baez was a defense attorney, he was not about get the deference reserved for the prosecution.
ricky jim, commenter @ talk left & @ orlando sentinel shared the 3 witness names to testify today for the defense.
ricky shared:
The defense experts testifying tomorrow are Profs. James Wayman, Peter French and G.R.. Doddington. Look them up to see why Angela and Bernie are soiling their panties tonight.
Professor Peter French – http://www.jpfrench.com/docs/frenchcv.pdf
Current Positions and Offices
Chairman of JP French Associates Forensic Speech & Acoustics Laboratory, York
Hon Professor, Dept of Language & Linguistic Science, Univ of York
President of The International Association for Forensic Phonetics and Acoustics
Editor (Phonetics & Acoustics) International Journal of Speech Language & the Law
today i just cringed at alot of what these audio experts had to say about their “methodology”. i took a clip of george’s nen call where he said trayvon was coming toward him and “enhanced” it with some cakewalk recording software i have. it sounds like a 3rd voice in the background angrily yelling. it was possibly trayvon threatening george. bam! i didn’t know i was an expert!
Following.
BTW, I’m having problems getting the second part of the June 7th hearing encoded. It keeps throwing sound out of sync. Has anyone else uploaded the hearing yet?
Oh, good. Looks like Michael SF did the rest of the hearing. I’m not going to spend any more time on it unless there’s something missing
Just the very end where they took up the motion to extend the curfew. Michael SF’s recording goes to the conclusion of Dr. Reich’s testimony.
Scratch that. AJ’s posted a copy that has it all.
“the world will point to this case as an example why the United States should not judge other systems when its own needs attention.”
I disagree with this statement. From what I have seen on forums and the media in other countries people in other countries are mostly in agreement that George is guilty. Maybe they have bought into the US liberal media bias against George but none the less that is how it seems to be. I don’t think the problem is with the US justice system as it is meant to work but with the present government in place. The US has probably the most corrupt Justice Department in history in power at this time. No doubt the Justice Department was influenced heavily in this case by the Congressional Black Caucus along with other groups. With this kind of corruption at the top who will hold anyone accountable in this case? George isn’t getting a fair trial in my opinion. O’Mara and West are doing a great job considering what they are up against. We can only hope a fair jury will be selected and they won’t be afraid to do what is right.
Also, a lot of the rest of the world cannot get a grip around the concept of self-defense when it is married to the CCW law. The mere fact that an armed GZ shot and killed an unarmed TM, to them, is dispositive of the issue.
Accordingly, one argues apples and oranges, since the premise allowed under Florida law, is not accepted in their arguments. (speaking in generalities, of course,)
WHATEVER happened to the Jury Questionaire that Judge N & the State/Defense were to work on? Maybe that’s what happened when they went in chambers yesterday w/the court reporter at the end of day.
IIRC, Nelson said that the parties would see it on Monday, June 10th. She solicited input, but the jury questionnaire is the court’s province.
If there ever any information released through FOIA requests or otherwise in how much money a state atty’s. office spent on an investigation and prosecution of a defendant? I’d love to see how much money Corey has spent on Ownes and Reich so far, and if they are in fact used in trial as expert witnesses.
Whatever happened to the two guys whose names both start with an H? Has the state thrown them aside because they could not provide conclusive evidence that it was in fact Trayvon screaming? or are they still on for state experts at trial? or have they withdrawn as experts?
I have the same question about H&H. They haven’t been and won’t be offered to the court for formal “qualification,” to get past defense motion to disqualify. I don’t think O’Mara would object to them testifying, since H&H concludes at least the last screams are more likely Zimmerman.
I don’t assume they will be precluded from testifying at trial, based on state’s failure to offer them to the court for examination. O’Mara should clarify his motion before the court rules, specifically naming the experts that he wants to have disqualified. But, if he doesn’t, and the court rules in his favor, ALL voice experts will be precluded from giving testimony at trial. That’s what his motion asked for. If the court rules in the state’s favor, allowing expert testimony on voice, then I believe H&H is available. I doubt the state would call H&H, but that doesn’t preclude O’Mara from calling H&H.
Were their qualifications part of the Stipulation regarding expert testimony?
I am going to get my concealed carry permit course training this morning, so I’ll be missing the hearing. Please get the links up as soon as you can so I can catch up this afternoon.
No. The stipulations were all procedural formalities about swearing in, whether there was a need for Notary Public with each witness, and similar procedural cruft. There has been no stipulation that any expert is qualified.
Have fun in your CCW course! I think today’s hearing will be like the hearing where the FBI expert testified. I don’t see the state making any headway in it’s quest to have Owen and Reich get over the Frye hurdle. Not that it matters. I think Nelson is going to allow Owen and Reich.
FWIW, the fact that Reich didn’t use a computer or some scientific method doesn’t automatically cut him out as an expert. Expertise can be measured by experience, and need not rely on bells and whistles analytical methods. I say that in a generic sense, thinking of “trackers” (people who track wildlife or people in the wild) and other people who develop niche expertise with focused attention and dedicated practice over a long period of time.
I think Reich fails the Frye test on the evidence in hand, but Nelson has demonstrated some stilted application of principles such as “relevance,” and she is apt to do the same thing here with “methodology” in order to admit the state’s experts. Reich may very well have an exceptionally good ear.
Hearing underway. I’ll be making remarks in my usual place for this – just to collect most of them in one place for convenience. TalkLeft forums.
How does one go about proving/determining that one has “an exceptionally good ear”? I would think that if one has an exceptionally good ear they would be able to hear the questions posed to him yesterday. Maybe he used “Listen Up.” LOL
So, if Nelson rules for the state we will have Reich and Owen, opposite the FBI guy, and the three guys that will be testifying for the defense today. After yesterday you would think that the state would be begging Nelson to rule against them, but then again Corey’s prosecution team seems to be hellbent on looking stoooopid.
— but then again Corey’s prosecution team seems to be hellbent on looking stoooopid. —
Stupidity is in the eye of the beholder. Consider Corey’s audience. The press, for starters. A more gullible bunch would be hard to assemble on purpose. Then, the people who choose to be informed by biased morons.
Within that audience, Corey’s prosecution team looks like geniuses for being to find what average people are unable to discover.
pinecone – Usually from the cases I have followed in Fla., the cost are tallied at the end of the case when all the costs come in. KC’s murder investigation and trial cost taxpayers almost $700,000, based on tallies from the major agencies involved in the case. There was NO crime scene in that murder case which drove the cost up, nebulous searches in swampy areas to try to find the remains of Caylee were expensive.
I would think GZ’s case wouldn’t even be 1/3 of what that case cost. The biggest difference is that there is a crime scene in a small area limiting the area to be investigated in this case. There is not a lot of DNA evidence requiring endless experts to argue the science of the findings. Reich stated he was paid $ 7,500.00 thus far, he is billing @ 100.00 per hour & has 70 hours into the case. Although the State has deep pockets, that seems ridiculous imo. You can find out, but the case will be over before all the costs are allocated imo.
Art- But then you didn’t have FDLE and FBI investigating Casey for hate crimes. You also didn’t have voice experts like Owen and Reich who seem determined to get their pot of gold at the end of the rainbow from the state. There were also the H & H guys who did work for the state, and possibly others. The state obviously went voice expert shopping until they found some that were willing to say what they wanted them to say, even against any and all common sense.
pinecone – KC’s case was knee deep in experts & all experts are paid and looking for their pot of gold, the couple from Holland did the touch DNA on Caylee’s clothes, DNA in the trunk, on the clothes, on the laundry hampers, it was endless as to how many experts that testified in that case, and every expert that testified, was challenged by another expert from the opposing side. The computer forensics alone required countless expert testimony from both sides, air sample experts, all very complicated. Experts make a living at being experts, or they would be PRO BONO! I haven’t heard of a single PRO BONO expert in this case.
It is customary for both sides to shop for the expert that supports their theory, that all do it in every case. We know more about the State because FLa. Law requires BDLR turn over everything to the Defense including every report. The Defense ONLY has to turn over what they plan to use at trial to the State. What ever isn’t favorable the defense finds in their case, they can shred it & not use it at trial or find a more favorable opinion, the State can’t, they turn it all over. imo, that is why it is more glaring for the State.
Reich said that he has more like 700 hours in the case, not 70.
Finally, a real audio expert. Dr. French is testifying this Saturday morning, via Skype. They must have heard us!
George Zimmerman trial: Hearing continues on audio experts
Marathon hearing continues with trial looming Monday.
Circuit Judge Debra Nelson has been hearing testimony on the issue since Thursday, and the defense still has three more witnesses to call. Their first today: John Peter French of the United Kingdom, an expert on voice identification.
French testified that the voice of a screaming person is “completely different” than their normal speaking voice. He said he’s”never come across a case” in his 30 year career “where anybody’s attempted to compare screaming… with normal voice.”
It seems to me that if gz was screaming under stressful circumstances, he could somehow duplicate that and then do a comparison to prove that it was him screaming. When he did it for the police, he was not under the same stressful conditions. But now that he has presumably heard the tape, he should be able to duplicate it if it were him screaming.
But according to Dr. French, screaming is so different from the normal voice that comparisons cannot be made.
The FBI guy said the other day that the person screaming was in fear for his life. Unless George is again in a situation where he fears for his life, I don’t believe that could ever be duplicated. I’d rather not see George ever again in imminent fear for his life with just seconds left to save himself. Then you also have all of the other factors such as weather, distance, recording quality etc. IMHO I don’t think that could ever be repeated.
This is just surreal; law schools should use this "seminar" by Don West to teach how to properly challenge junk science.
Nettles, I honestly believe that Nelson, and the state are just running the clock, as they certainly did yesterday, so as to get to trial Mon. before O’Mara can possibly file any more motions with the DCA. To cut off the defense on Thurs. while they were proving the manipulation and discovery violations by BDLR and Corey was criminal in my book. Yet she wasted an entire day yesterday with some junk experts. By late yesterday she should have ruled for the defense that there are no experts who can possibly determine anything with W11’s 911 recording. Then I remember who the judge is……..
I am quite impressed with Mr. West. The state used Mr. Mantei to cross-examine the defense witnesses. Could you imagine BDLR asking these witnesses the technical questions?
A real scientist, Dr. French refuses to speculate about and area outside his expertise, on what physiological changes occur during puberty. What a contrast to the State’s witnesses.
Mr. French has finished testifying. In a nutshell, he doesn’t think the sample can be used to determine speech or identify who was screaming. It scientifically can’t be determined. The court is in a 15 minute recess.
Can O”mara/West still file for an emergency motion for a continuance with the DCA on Monday while Jury selection is going on? I think it was Hornsby who said yesterday that neither side is prepared for a trial start on Monday.
Dumb question- If the state was still investigating this case as late as a month or two ago, how did they believe they had enough 2nd degree murder evidence back last April? Does Corey’s office always charge first and then look for the evidence later?
Crump, Nelson and the state all figure that their best chance is for a rush to judgment before any more information comes out. The system is now shown to be corrupt. No one can possibly have any faith left in Floriduh justice. It is shameful.
That the system is corrupt is known to anybody who has been through it, and in this case, to anybody who viewed the evidence available in the first three weeks after the shooting. I honestly expected Corey to no bill.
Now what we have learned is the depth of corruption. The prosecutor, her assistants, and at least two judges. Do the math, what are the chances that the only corrupt officals in the state, happened to be drawn for Zimmerman duty. Not a chance. I figure the whole state is steeped in corruption.
Wow! I was reflecting on that last night. What are the chances that Zimmerman had such bad luck to find so many corrupt officials. From State Attorneys, to Judges to those helping and assisting them.
The state has to be awash in it. I get one or two morally corrupt people. Again, there are glimmers of hope. Ben Kruidbos is one. Hopefully, we will see more from the Sanford Police dept. and the local State Attorney’s office.
cboldt- Then there is the fact that Bondi/Scott interjected themselves and Bondi personally chose a prosecutor she knew would go for the throat even with no evidence. I still go back to MJW link to BDLR threatening a witness with perjury charges if he didn’t continue to lie for BDLR. I believe the ruling there was at least a partial new hearing in court.
As to everyone in Fla. being corrupt, I would agree on the basis that no one ever seems to push for charges to be brought against those like Corey and BDLR, and that makes them almost as corrupt in my book. I can’t even imagine the rath that will come down on O’Mara and West for doing the exposing they have.
cboldt – You are correct, it’s likely it’s the entire State. The Adam Kaufman case was the worst I’d ever seen, the case was around Miami. Kaufman was found not guilty, had a million dollar defense team, BUT the case should have NEVER been brought against Kaufman.
The CSI Tech had an affair w/the LEAD Detective. The CSI Tech testified & LIED on the stand about the affair, was EXPOSED by the Defense team & blind sided the State. The State didn’t put their Lead Detective on the stand to testify. STILL the State proceeded when the case should have been dropped.
What if Adam Kaufman didn’t have a million dollars to pay for his defense? What if GZ didn’t have MOM/West defending him? That’s pretty damn scary imo.
I’ll go even further than that stevie g. Because this case is being watched nationwide, not only those in Fla. will be questioning their justice system, I’m sure many can and will apply it to cases that have happened in their own states like Nifong’s GA, the Richard Jewel case, Tawana Brawley etc. Anyone really paying attention also knows that the federal DOJ has gotten involved in a local matter as well. I’m still wating for Obama to say something like- You know that remark about Trayvon being my son, uhhh ummmm forget I ever said that, let’s go have a beer.
Are you trying to say that Mike Nifong, of Duke Lacrosse case fame (or infamy, perhaps) has anything to do with the State of Georgia?
I’m sorry, it should have been North Carolina. The state atty gen. there had the sense to drop the charges against the players when he saw them getting railroaded by Nifong.
Rene is advising the defense has just filed for a continuance.
There was a Georgia angle to the Duke Lacrosse case?
It’s unbelievable to meet the Judge keeps that date firm when she heard testimony on Thursday that the prosecutor had just given the contents of Trayvon Martin’s phone to the defense on June 4th. There were over a 1,000 pictures they hadn’t seen before. What time do they have to look through all the new data, contemplate what it tells them and explore and investigation the discovery it reveals.
Then we hear from Dr. Reich yesterday that he was hired in June 2012 by the State and has not completed his report. It will take a couple more weeks to get it done. So the defense has zero time on that one too.
I haven’t heard anything about the Crump depo. yet either.
One of the lawyers on that side, it may have been Shayan, said it hasn’t been scheduled yet. That was 2 or 3 days ago.
15 minute recess.
If roles reversed, and this was a State expert, most judges would stop hearing right now and rule against defense and 2 quacks. @TennisLaw
So when is Nelson going to declare that Reich and Owen are opposing witnesses just as Crump was opposing council, and declare that their testimony is work product? Defense- Denied.
sad buy probably true; she has no shame at all:
@TennisLaw Frustrating part will be when Nelson, after 3 days of testimony, says how "credible" she finds state experts and allows testimony
Just a minor quibble. Nelson won’t remark on credibility, that’s the jury’s role. What she is going to find is that all the experts agree the methods are reliable (even though French expressly stated otherwise, she’ll hold him as an outlier). She’ll then say the Frye test only looks at the methodology used, and as long as the methodology or technique is accepted ever, then it is acceptable against this evidence. Owen and Reich are going to clear the Frye hurdle in Nelson’s courtroom. It’s a foregone conclusion. She has to let the defense put on its case, so she’s probably annoyed it is taking so long. She’ll figure out a get-even.
If these two guys pass a Frey hearing, then I don’t get why anyone would ever fail.
Nelson would exclude an astrologer. Owen and Reich aren’t astrologers.
Uhhh, not so fast if they read Tarrot cards, or use a Crystal Ball. That is their mythology, ooops sorry methodology, so they would be good to go.
So this is what a Frye hearing is. The state experts are truly getting fried.
BDLR and Mark O'Mara in a testy exchange in courtroom before judge returns. They agree to "take it out to the hallway" later.
I just read that DeForest heard BDLR say to O’Mara that he already gave them the discs. So Bernie is still fuming that O’Mara brought a whistelblower in to testify, and his attorney White. I still smile when I remember reading that BDLR said to White that he doen’t remember the unpleasant things, and White replied that he remembered him.
I hope that there are police in the hallway, or at least a few good refs. My guess is that BDLR is about to go ballistic.
2nd def expert: George Doddington, electrical engineer who formerly worked at Texas Instruments with NSA. #Trayvon, #Zimnerman.
We all have to vote to make Hornsby an official commentator for this case. He is a riot! Surely HLN and others can get better talking heads. No outside attorney seems more knowledgeable about this case than Hornsby.
I was reading Robert Zim Jr.’s texts earlier and he tweeted about O’Mara wanting to keep the identity of an eyewitness to the attack hidden. Is he referring to W6, or is their someone else who may have seen TM throw the first punch? I know the judge denied the defense motion.
I pondered if it wasn’t this young man who really wanted to stay anonymous when giving his testimony. There is of course more than one. I think I heard there are at least 3 and as many as 6 witnesses asking for protection.
I would figure John just because his first interview was with a reporter holding the microphone towards the door as he hid in his house. He never came out publicly unlike the other crump/nutty jackson stooges.
After Judge Lester was recused, Nelson was assigned as judge by a so-called “random” system. I wonder how random it really was.
There are only 6 Judges in that county. Before the trial even started, one recued himself. O’Mara sought to recuse one and then we got Lester. There are only 2 others left. I thought I read if Nelson didn’t complete the trial, they’d have to go outside the county.
Thanks! I really like that on Hornsby’s website, he shows all of the time he got clients off with Judge Nelson. And some were probably even guilty! Seriously, her rulings on the law are so prejudicial, that she makes a mockery of the justice system there.
I thought I read back before Nelson was assigned to the case that that court was bringing another criminally certified judge onto their criminal bench. She had an hispanic sounding name, but I don’t remember it.
When Judge Strickland stepped down in KC’s case, CHIEF Judge Belvin Perry decided to sit for the case, the responsibilities of Chief Judge are to supervise their Judges & they too try cases just as Chief Judge Perry did, at the time, Judge P supervised over 75 Judges, it was Orange County but it could have encompassed other counties as well.
Seminole County HAS A CHIEF JUDGE TOO! His name is Chief Judge Alan Dickey.
Part Of Chief Judge Alan Dickey’s Mission Statement, presiding over Seminole County & Brevard County.:
Welcome to the Eighteenth Judicial Circuit Court. As Chief Judge, it is my honor to serve the citizens of Brevard and Seminole counties. It continues to be the mission of the Circuit to provide our citizens justice without prejudice in a professional manner focused on protecting rights and liberties, upholding and interpreting the law, and providing expeditious resolution of disputes.
Yeah, well, watch what they do, not what they say.
cboldt – I’ve watched many high profile cases as far back as Betty Broderick & OJ, & many cases in FLa. imo Chief Judge Belvin Perry without exception was absolutely the most fair Judge to both sides, giving each side ample opportunity to make their arguments I’ve ever watched in any case. I watched him do an excellent job, it’s hard to imagine anybody could be worse than Judge Nelson has been no matter who it was imo.
Nettles – It’s not a big deal if they go outside the county, CHIEF Judge Alan DIckey resides over the Judges for Seminole & Brevard counties. The Chief Judge could even reside over the case just like in KC’s case.
Chief Judge Dickey’s Mission statement is at this link, I listed it down thread too, BUT the links included at this link list the Judges for both Seminole & Brevard Counties PLUS look under “biographies,” it lists the Judges in both Seminole & Brevard. Lots of Circuit Judges in Brevard & County Judges as well.
“It’s a violation of common sense” in reference to Mr. Owen doubling his small sample to get enough to analyze. – George Doddington.
Can you picture Mr. Owen and Mr. Reich yelling at their computers screens today? I can.
Mr. O’Mara has finished with his examination of Dr. George Doddington. They have broken for 1/2 hour lunch and when they come back, Mr. Mantei from the state will begin his cross-examination. Mr. Mantei estimated between his cross and Mr. O’Mara’s redirect that about another hour would be needed of Dr. Doddington.
Here’s what Reich had to say in his report: “Although 8-bit amplitude resolution is attractive for situations requiring small data files, it’s vertical scale has only 256 amplitude gradations [compared to 65,536 for 16-bit]. The 911-Dispatch System’s 16-bit resolution was critical to the success of this investigation, in which the recorded signals had a very wide dynamic range (from very distant speech to softly whispered speech to a single loud gunshot to several heart-poundingly loud screams.)”
He testified that he knew it was 16-bit because of the metadata from the file he was given. Oops, turns out it was 8-bit data in a 16-bit file format. The top 8 bits were all zeros! LMAO! That alone should disqualify him as a kook.
Doddington noticed this by viewing either the waveform or a spectrograph – too jagged for 16 bit vertical resolution. So, he looked at the PCM file and saw how the bits are arranged. TaDa.
I think his value as an expert was diminished by O’Mara’s examination. Not to say he’s a bad witness or his testimony hurts the defense in any way, just that he could have been much, much better with skilled and focused questioning. The narrative that emerged from the dialog was impossible to follow.
The defense has the ultimate expert on their side….Tracy Martin.
Great point.
George Doddington just ended his testimony saying the sampling in this case is so bad that no one would attempt to analyze it for speech identification or voice recognition. “Mr. French wouldn’t touch it with a ten-foot pole.”
There is gong to be a delay in Mr. Wayman’s getting to the monitor (he’s in Rome) of about 15 minutes. Mr. O’Mara asked in the meantime could they address the motion in limine. Judge said no she didn’t want to get into another motion and delay hearing from witness in this hearing. The motion in limine could be hurt after jury selection and before start of trial.
Don West then advised the Judge the George is required to call into his monitoring station between 10am and noon every other day and could that be relaxed while the trial is on as he’ll be in the courtroom. The Judge ordered he call in either between 8am and 9am or 6pm and 7pm on the days he is required to report. Court went into recess until the witness is ready.
I wonder if Stutzman found Doddington to be credible. I think she has what Doddington said, about right, but that is different from an opinion as to the persausive value. Does she believe Doddington? Does she think her readers should believe Doddington?
Tough chore for her to communicate the relative merits of the experts’ cases.
The witness is on a tarmac and his plane is delayed. They will have to continue the hearing at a later date. Court now in recess until Monday morning at 9:00am EST.
The Judge is going to waste the Jury’s time in waiting around while the court takes care of business that should have concluded before they were selected for Jury duty.
If "Frye" hearing won'tB until after jury selection & right before trial-Will "Frye" standard apply OR new "Daubert" standard as of 7/1/13?
— Robert Zimmerman Jr. (@rzimmermanjr) June 8, 2013
It will be neither the Frye or Daubert standards – it will be the Nelson standard!
Whether Judge Nelson lets the state’s experts testify or not doesn’t matter to me. Part of me thinks that letting them testify in front of a jury will help the defense case in showing how dishonest and desperate the state is. The Frye hearing seems to have done that already. I just caught the end of an HLN program yesterday that had two lawyers, laughing about the state’s experts. I didn’t get their names but even the biased station couldn’t find someone to go to air and say the state’s experts are credible.
Rene’s write-up today admits, she isn’t sure the state’s experts are going to be helpful to the state. Both Owen and Reich in their own way said the sampling was too poor to tell for sure so I gave you my best guess.
“Let’s just put it out there that it’s not a perfect tape,” Owen said. “This is not really good evidence.”
I think if the state is allowed to put these witnesses in front of the jury, they do so at their own peril.
Adds more weight to my theory that BDLR, Corey, and Nelson are all hoping to be so over the top in their misconduct that a conviction, if it comes, will surely be overturned on appeal.
So, no ruling on the voice experts, no ruling on defense motions in limine, no depo of Crump, and no finishing depo of W8, but the tents will rise over the three ring circus bright and early Monday morning. I suspect the entire defense team will not be going to bed for days.
Of the items you mentioned, no depo of Crump is the most problematic. Motions in limine can be disposed of quickly. A decision on the expert disqualification motion can wait until the expert is about to be called to testify, which might be several days into the trial, or even a week into the trial, depending on how the state chooses to proceed. I don’t believe the court will allow the state to call an expert until after the court rules on the defense motion.
I do agree, long hours in the next weeks. Nelson is erecting barriers, and it’s not easy for the defense to pick which of those represent reversible error. I’m sure they don’t want to leave any issues standing without documented objection.
My feeling is that the defense is in pretty good shape, even with those issues in limbo. A HUGE issue will be the contents of jury instructions, and likely just before that, the contents of evidence against a motion for acquittal.
The Crump depo is most useful to obtain evidence against Crump, which is a separate proceeding be it bar complaint or lawsuit. This trial is a good opportunity to get evidence that will become unavailable once the defense has concluded presentation of its case.
“Nelson is erecting barriers, and it’s not easy for the defense to pick which of those represent reversible error. I’m sure they don’t want to leave any issues standing without documented objection.”
Please can you explain that in non-legal terms? IANAL and I have no idea what you mean by “erecting barriers.”
From the DCA opinion released, they seemed to have a major problem with the judge not ruling that a Crump depo was critical at this time, as the damage done later could not be determined. Were they just telegraphing what would be considered on appeal? or, were they concerned that a third party lawyer, working for the victim’s family in a civil lawsuit should not have the ability to have so much influence with the criminal trial that is so necessary in order to get to that civil lawsuit?
Does anyone know of any cases where a civil attorney, working for the victims family, ever made it so loud, blatant and obvious, from the get go, that they are planning on suing everything that moves, as long as they get a conviction on some charges? or they will burn the place down, literally? I truly don’t know if anything like this has ever been so telegraphed even before any investigation was completed.
By “erecting barriers,” I just mean she is ruling against defense motions and in favor of state motions. Each of those instances represents some kind of barrier to the defense preparing for and putting on the case supported by evidence; or a “green light” to the state to present a misleading case.
The DCA Crump opinion, by saying they couldn’t determine the damage, was basically saying that they can’t know what Crump has if he doesn’t provide testimony, and without a record, there is no way to tell if excluding him affected the trial or not.
If your question is to how many attorneys manage to co-opt the press to dishonest advantage, Sharpton and Brawley comes to mind. There is no shortage of skunks out there.
I’m trying to catch up on the hearing videos of the last 3 days. I was watching Owens, and near the beginning he is talking about pitch, and he says men have about 120 vibrations per something (minute, utterance, I don’t know). Then he says that’s the majority of the population. Hmmm. Women are 52% of the population. This guy can’t get anything right lol
120 Hz, or cycles per second. The “A” note sounded on the second (or fifth, if you prefer) string on a tuned guitar vibrates at 440 Hz. Hz (short for Hertz) is cycles (for sound, air pressure peaks and valleys) per second.
His reference to majority of the population is a reference to the population of men. “Population” is a common statistical term, and refers to the entire group for which a contention is asserted. That group can be, and was in this case, all post-puberty males.
I’m big on research, so very familiar with stats – not familiar with this field, of course. And as hard of a time I had listening to this guy, the next guy (Barney Frank type speech) had me ready to commit suicide lol
Thank you AJ! Part 1 of today’s hearing. He’ll have part 2 up soon.
The appendix has been added to the state’s 17th Supplemental. ie: Gym Membership, Police rejection letter, cell phone texts, Trayvon’s 7-Eleven receipt, etc.
With BDLR putting in the discovery that it was iced tea, I thought the receipt may read that. Details don’t matter, obviously.
Is that supposed to be a list of George’s cell phone calls (p12/31) from 2/26/12?
Because there’s nothing on there that could be the NEN call, even if you shift the hour part around to account for different time zones.
Further, it’s not the number he gave dispatcher Sean on that call.
(I had forgotten about the guy who got a new cell phone in May of 2012 and got George’s old number and lots of threatening calls and texts to go with it)
Could that be Shellie’s phone they got by mistake?
According to the summary on page 2/31, it is Robert Zimmerman Jr.’s phone records. It says Shellie’s were provided earlier.
Replying to myself to note that I just figured out that I’m an idiot and that is (or was) his brother’s number, not his.
a great job questioning the State’s “experts” yesterday.
kNOw Truth, kNOw Justice 
Hi Nettles! West asked a question today that completely destroyed one of the audio experts.
Hi and Welcome. I thought West did a great job today.
What was the question?
Just glad to be here!
i remember your posts on facebook. you are always fair and patient with those who support the prosecution. i don’t have that kind of patience myself. thanks for starting your own blog.
Thank you. I’m glad you found it.
There is NO way that the defense can allow Nelson to say that anything about her friend BLDR will have to wait without at least telling her WHY it cannot wait.
Is she really going to allow a proven lying criminal to proceed to prosecute George? The other judges and attorneys should be calling for her head after seeing this. Otherwise, they are no better.
How long should today’s hearing last and is it possible other issues will be argued/heard?
I think the only other motion left to attend to is the defense’s motion in limine. It will likely get taken care of after the Frye hearing is done.
jordan2222 – I am truly shocked Judge N has put off the hearing on the sanctions/whistle blower on BDLR until after the trial. That sucks, I too am offended that the very person ACCUSED of screwing GZ/defense is continuing to participate in the lynching. That seems unreasonable to me.
In KC’s case, Baez got sanctioned & had to pay a fine during the trial, Baez had 2 or 3 complaints to the Fla. Bar & 1 of them was from a sitting Judge. Chief Judge Belvin Perry promised to address several more infractions against Baez after the trial & I think some could have included sanctions but when KC/Baez won the case, it left everyone shocked. As much as I like Chief Belvin Perry, imo, Baez should have been addressed on the infractions as Judge Perry promised after the trial, I don’t think they got addressed.
I am forever disappointed in Judge N, even after the trial, I don’t think she will do anything, imo, she’s hoping the media won’t be focused on BDLR’s problems INSTEAD of addressing the dishonesty in the SAO office.
Will the whistle blowers testify at trial or have they been shipped in a crate to china?
yeah, but don’t forget, Baez was a defense attorney, he was not about get the deference reserved for the prosecution.
ricky jim, commenter @ talk left & @ orlando sentinel shared the 3 witness names to testify today for the defense.
ricky shared:
The defense experts testifying tomorrow are Profs. James Wayman, Peter French and G.R.. Doddington. Look them up to see why Angela and Bernie are soiling their panties tonight.
imo, appears to be an all star line up.
Dr. James Wayman, Biometrics, Research Administrator http://biometrics.org/bc2008/profiles/jameswayman.html
Professor Peter French – http://www.jpfrench.com/docs/frenchcv.pdf
Current Positions and Offices
Chairman of JP French Associates Forensic Speech & Acoustics Laboratory, York
Hon Professor, Dept of Language & Linguistic Science, Univ of York
President of The International Association for Forensic Phonetics and Acoustics
Editor (Phonetics & Acoustics) International Journal of Speech Language & the Law
George Doddington works with NIST.
http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~ley/pers/hd/d/Doddington:George_R=.html
very impressive witnesses.
today i just cringed at alot of what these audio experts had to say about their “methodology”. i took a clip of george’s nen call where he said trayvon was coming toward him and “enhanced” it with some cakewalk recording software i have. it sounds like a 3rd voice in the background angrily yelling. it was possibly trayvon threatening george. bam! i didn’t know i was an expert!
Following.
BTW, I’m having problems getting the second part of the June 7th hearing encoded. It keeps throwing sound out of sync. Has anyone else uploaded the hearing yet?
Oh, good. Looks like Michael SF did the rest of the hearing. I’m not going to spend any more time on it unless there’s something missing
Just the very end where they took up the motion to extend the curfew. Michael SF’s recording goes to the conclusion of Dr. Reich’s testimony.
Scratch that. AJ’s posted a copy that has it all.
“the world will point to this case as an example why the United States should not judge other systems when its own needs attention.”
I disagree with this statement. From what I have seen on forums and the media in other countries people in other countries are mostly in agreement that George is guilty. Maybe they have bought into the US liberal media bias against George but none the less that is how it seems to be. I don’t think the problem is with the US justice system as it is meant to work but with the present government in place. The US has probably the most corrupt Justice Department in history in power at this time. No doubt the Justice Department was influenced heavily in this case by the Congressional Black Caucus along with other groups. With this kind of corruption at the top who will hold anyone accountable in this case? George isn’t getting a fair trial in my opinion. O’Mara and West are doing a great job considering what they are up against. We can only hope a fair jury will be selected and they won’t be afraid to do what is right.
Also, a lot of the rest of the world cannot get a grip around the concept of self-defense when it is married to the CCW law. The mere fact that an armed GZ shot and killed an unarmed TM, to them, is dispositive of the issue.
Accordingly, one argues apples and oranges, since the premise allowed under Florida law, is not accepted in their arguments. (speaking in generalities, of course,)
WHATEVER happened to the Jury Questionaire that Judge N & the State/Defense were to work on? Maybe that’s what happened when they went in chambers yesterday w/the court reporter at the end of day.
IIRC, Nelson said that the parties would see it on Monday, June 10th. She solicited input, but the jury questionnaire is the court’s province.
That was my understanding as well.
http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/06/zimmerman-prosecutions-voice-expert-admits-this-is-not-really-good-evidence/
If there ever any information released through FOIA requests or otherwise in how much money a state atty’s. office spent on an investigation and prosecution of a defendant? I’d love to see how much money Corey has spent on Ownes and Reich so far, and if they are in fact used in trial as expert witnesses.
Whatever happened to the two guys whose names both start with an H? Has the state thrown them aside because they could not provide conclusive evidence that it was in fact Trayvon screaming? or are they still on for state experts at trial? or have they withdrawn as experts?
I have the same question about H&H. They haven’t been and won’t be offered to the court for formal “qualification,” to get past defense motion to disqualify. I don’t think O’Mara would object to them testifying, since H&H concludes at least the last screams are more likely Zimmerman.
I don’t assume they will be precluded from testifying at trial, based on state’s failure to offer them to the court for examination. O’Mara should clarify his motion before the court rules, specifically naming the experts that he wants to have disqualified. But, if he doesn’t, and the court rules in his favor, ALL voice experts will be precluded from giving testimony at trial. That’s what his motion asked for. If the court rules in the state’s favor, allowing expert testimony on voice, then I believe H&H is available. I doubt the state would call H&H, but that doesn’t preclude O’Mara from calling H&H.
Were their qualifications part of the Stipulation regarding expert testimony?
I am going to get my concealed carry permit course training this morning, so I’ll be missing the hearing. Please get the links up as soon as you can so I can catch up this afternoon.
No. The stipulations were all procedural formalities about swearing in, whether there was a need for Notary Public with each witness, and similar procedural cruft. There has been no stipulation that any expert is qualified.
Have fun in your CCW course! I think today’s hearing will be like the hearing where the FBI expert testified. I don’t see the state making any headway in it’s quest to have Owen and Reich get over the Frye hurdle. Not that it matters. I think Nelson is going to allow Owen and Reich.
FWIW, the fact that Reich didn’t use a computer or some scientific method doesn’t automatically cut him out as an expert. Expertise can be measured by experience, and need not rely on bells and whistles analytical methods. I say that in a generic sense, thinking of “trackers” (people who track wildlife or people in the wild) and other people who develop niche expertise with focused attention and dedicated practice over a long period of time.
I think Reich fails the Frye test on the evidence in hand, but Nelson has demonstrated some stilted application of principles such as “relevance,” and she is apt to do the same thing here with “methodology” in order to admit the state’s experts. Reich may very well have an exceptionally good ear.
Hearing underway. I’ll be making remarks in my usual place for this – just to collect most of them in one place for convenience. TalkLeft forums.
How does one go about proving/determining that one has “an exceptionally good ear”? I would think that if one has an exceptionally good ear they would be able to hear the questions posed to him yesterday. Maybe he used “Listen Up.” LOL
So, if Nelson rules for the state we will have Reich and Owen, opposite the FBI guy, and the three guys that will be testifying for the defense today. After yesterday you would think that the state would be begging Nelson to rule against them, but then again Corey’s prosecution team seems to be hellbent on looking stoooopid.
— but then again Corey’s prosecution team seems to be hellbent on looking stoooopid. —
Stupidity is in the eye of the beholder. Consider Corey’s audience. The press, for starters. A more gullible bunch would be hard to assemble on purpose. Then, the people who choose to be informed by biased morons.
Within that audience, Corey’s prosecution team looks like geniuses for being to find what average people are unable to discover.
pinecone – Usually from the cases I have followed in Fla., the cost are tallied at the end of the case when all the costs come in. KC’s murder investigation and trial cost taxpayers almost $700,000, based on tallies from the major agencies involved in the case. There was NO crime scene in that murder case which drove the cost up, nebulous searches in swampy areas to try to find the remains of Caylee were expensive.
I would think GZ’s case wouldn’t even be 1/3 of what that case cost. The biggest difference is that there is a crime scene in a small area limiting the area to be investigated in this case. There is not a lot of DNA evidence requiring endless experts to argue the science of the findings. Reich stated he was paid $ 7,500.00 thus far, he is billing @ 100.00 per hour & has 70 hours into the case. Although the State has deep pockets, that seems ridiculous imo. You can find out, but the case will be over before all the costs are allocated imo.
Art- But then you didn’t have FDLE and FBI investigating Casey for hate crimes. You also didn’t have voice experts like Owen and Reich who seem determined to get their pot of gold at the end of the rainbow from the state. There were also the H & H guys who did work for the state, and possibly others. The state obviously went voice expert shopping until they found some that were willing to say what they wanted them to say, even against any and all common sense.
pinecone – KC’s case was knee deep in experts & all experts are paid and looking for their pot of gold, the couple from Holland did the touch DNA on Caylee’s clothes, DNA in the trunk, on the clothes, on the laundry hampers, it was endless as to how many experts that testified in that case, and every expert that testified, was challenged by another expert from the opposing side. The computer forensics alone required countless expert testimony from both sides, air sample experts, all very complicated. Experts make a living at being experts, or they would be PRO BONO! I haven’t heard of a single PRO BONO expert in this case.
It is customary for both sides to shop for the expert that supports their theory, that all do it in every case. We know more about the State because FLa. Law requires BDLR turn over everything to the Defense including every report. The Defense ONLY has to turn over what they plan to use at trial to the State. What ever isn’t favorable the defense finds in their case, they can shred it & not use it at trial or find a more favorable opinion, the State can’t, they turn it all over. imo, that is why it is more glaring for the State.
Reich said that he has more like 700 hours in the case, not 70.
Finally, a real audio expert. Dr. French is testifying this Saturday morning, via Skype. They must have heard us!
George Zimmerman trial: Hearing continues on audio experts
Marathon hearing continues with trial looming Monday.
Circuit Judge Debra Nelson has been hearing testimony on the issue since Thursday, and the defense still has three more witnesses to call. Their first today: John Peter French of the United Kingdom, an expert on voice identification.
French testified that the voice of a screaming person is “completely different” than their normal speaking voice. He said he’s”never come across a case” in his 30 year career “where anybody’s attempted to compare screaming… with normal voice.”
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-trial-ruling-audio-20130608,0,5224051.story
It seems to me that if gz was screaming under stressful circumstances, he could somehow duplicate that and then do a comparison to prove that it was him screaming. When he did it for the police, he was not under the same stressful conditions. But now that he has presumably heard the tape, he should be able to duplicate it if it were him screaming.
But according to Dr. French, screaming is so different from the normal voice that comparisons cannot be made.
The FBI guy said the other day that the person screaming was in fear for his life. Unless George is again in a situation where he fears for his life, I don’t believe that could ever be duplicated. I’d rather not see George ever again in imminent fear for his life with just seconds left to save himself. Then you also have all of the other factors such as weather, distance, recording quality etc. IMHO I don’t think that could ever be repeated.
https://twitter.com/ECGuillet/status/343374803962576896
Nettles, I honestly believe that Nelson, and the state are just running the clock, as they certainly did yesterday, so as to get to trial Mon. before O’Mara can possibly file any more motions with the DCA. To cut off the defense on Thurs. while they were proving the manipulation and discovery violations by BDLR and Corey was criminal in my book. Yet she wasted an entire day yesterday with some junk experts. By late yesterday she should have ruled for the defense that there are no experts who can possibly determine anything with W11’s 911 recording. Then I remember who the judge is……..
I am quite impressed with Mr. West. The state used Mr. Mantei to cross-examine the defense witnesses. Could you imagine BDLR asking these witnesses the technical questions?
A real scientist, Dr. French refuses to speculate about and area outside his expertise, on what physiological changes occur during puberty. What a contrast to the State’s witnesses.
Mr. French has finished testifying. In a nutshell, he doesn’t think the sample can be used to determine speech or identify who was screaming. It scientifically can’t be determined. The court is in a 15 minute recess.
Can O”mara/West still file for an emergency motion for a continuance with the DCA on Monday while Jury selection is going on? I think it was Hornsby who said yesterday that neither side is prepared for a trial start on Monday.
Dumb question- If the state was still investigating this case as late as a month or two ago, how did they believe they had enough 2nd degree murder evidence back last April? Does Corey’s office always charge first and then look for the evidence later?
Crump, Nelson and the state all figure that their best chance is for a rush to judgment before any more information comes out. The system is now shown to be corrupt. No one can possibly have any faith left in Floriduh justice. It is shameful.
That the system is corrupt is known to anybody who has been through it, and in this case, to anybody who viewed the evidence available in the first three weeks after the shooting. I honestly expected Corey to no bill.
Now what we have learned is the depth of corruption. The prosecutor, her assistants, and at least two judges. Do the math, what are the chances that the only corrupt officals in the state, happened to be drawn for Zimmerman duty. Not a chance. I figure the whole state is steeped in corruption.
Wow! I was reflecting on that last night. What are the chances that Zimmerman had such bad luck to find so many corrupt officials. From State Attorneys, to Judges to those helping and assisting them.
The state has to be awash in it. I get one or two morally corrupt people. Again, there are glimmers of hope. Ben Kruidbos is one. Hopefully, we will see more from the Sanford Police dept. and the local State Attorney’s office.
cboldt- Then there is the fact that Bondi/Scott interjected themselves and Bondi personally chose a prosecutor she knew would go for the throat even with no evidence. I still go back to MJW link to BDLR threatening a witness with perjury charges if he didn’t continue to lie for BDLR. I believe the ruling there was at least a partial new hearing in court.
As to everyone in Fla. being corrupt, I would agree on the basis that no one ever seems to push for charges to be brought against those like Corey and BDLR, and that makes them almost as corrupt in my book. I can’t even imagine the rath that will come down on O’Mara and West for doing the exposing they have.
cboldt – You are correct, it’s likely it’s the entire State. The Adam Kaufman case was the worst I’d ever seen, the case was around Miami. Kaufman was found not guilty, had a million dollar defense team, BUT the case should have NEVER been brought against Kaufman.
The CSI Tech had an affair w/the LEAD Detective. The CSI Tech testified & LIED on the stand about the affair, was EXPOSED by the Defense team & blind sided the State. The State didn’t put their Lead Detective on the stand to testify. STILL the State proceeded when the case should have been dropped.
What if Adam Kaufman didn’t have a million dollars to pay for his defense? What if GZ didn’t have MOM/West defending him? That’s pretty damn scary imo.
I’ll go even further than that stevie g. Because this case is being watched nationwide, not only those in Fla. will be questioning their justice system, I’m sure many can and will apply it to cases that have happened in their own states like Nifong’s GA, the Richard Jewel case, Tawana Brawley etc. Anyone really paying attention also knows that the federal DOJ has gotten involved in a local matter as well. I’m still wating for Obama to say something like- You know that remark about Trayvon being my son, uhhh ummmm forget I ever said that, let’s go have a beer.
Are you trying to say that Mike Nifong, of Duke Lacrosse case fame (or infamy, perhaps) has anything to do with the State of Georgia?
I’m sorry, it should have been North Carolina. The state atty gen. there had the sense to drop the charges against the players when he saw them getting railroaded by Nifong.
Rene is advising the defense has just filed for a continuance.
There was a Georgia angle to the Duke Lacrosse case?
It’s unbelievable to meet the Judge keeps that date firm when she heard testimony on Thursday that the prosecutor had just given the contents of Trayvon Martin’s phone to the defense on June 4th. There were over a 1,000 pictures they hadn’t seen before. What time do they have to look through all the new data, contemplate what it tells them and explore and investigation the discovery it reveals.
Then we hear from Dr. Reich yesterday that he was hired in June 2012 by the State and has not completed his report. It will take a couple more weeks to get it done. So the defense has zero time on that one too.
I haven’t heard anything about the Crump depo. yet either.
One of the lawyers on that side, it may have been Shayan, said it hasn’t been scheduled yet. That was 2 or 3 days ago.
15 minute recess.
So when is Nelson going to declare that Reich and Owen are opposing witnesses just as Crump was opposing council, and declare that their testimony is work product? Defense- Denied.
sad buy probably true; she has no shame at all:
Just a minor quibble. Nelson won’t remark on credibility, that’s the jury’s role. What she is going to find is that all the experts agree the methods are reliable (even though French expressly stated otherwise, she’ll hold him as an outlier). She’ll then say the Frye test only looks at the methodology used, and as long as the methodology or technique is accepted ever, then it is acceptable against this evidence. Owen and Reich are going to clear the Frye hurdle in Nelson’s courtroom. It’s a foregone conclusion. She has to let the defense put on its case, so she’s probably annoyed it is taking so long. She’ll figure out a get-even.
If these two guys pass a Frey hearing, then I don’t get why anyone would ever fail.
Nelson would exclude an astrologer. Owen and Reich aren’t astrologers.
Uhhh, not so fast if they read Tarrot cards, or use a Crystal Ball. That is their mythology, ooops sorry methodology, so they would be good to go.
So this is what a Frye hearing is. The state experts are truly getting fried.
I just read that DeForest heard BDLR say to O’Mara that he already gave them the discs. So Bernie is still fuming that O’Mara brought a whistelblower in to testify, and his attorney White. I still smile when I remember reading that BDLR said to White that he doen’t remember the unpleasant things, and White replied that he remembered him.
I hope that there are police in the hallway, or at least a few good refs. My guess is that BDLR is about to go ballistic.
We all have to vote to make Hornsby an official commentator for this case. He is a riot! Surely HLN and others can get better talking heads. No outside attorney seems more knowledgeable about this case than Hornsby.
I was reading Robert Zim Jr.’s texts earlier and he tweeted about O’Mara wanting to keep the identity of an eyewitness to the attack hidden. Is he referring to W6, or is their someone else who may have seen TM throw the first punch? I know the judge denied the defense motion.
I think that was W6. I also wonder what the defense got from W14 (Austin) in his deposition. I wondered if he revealed having seen the fight. In the defense’s 3rd reciprocal discovery you will note the defense put in 4 redacted videos of Austin. http://www.gzlegalcase.com/index.php/court-documents/174-defendant-s-3rd-supplemental-discovery
I pondered if it wasn’t this young man who really wanted to stay anonymous when giving his testimony. There is of course more than one. I think I heard there are at least 3 and as many as 6 witnesses asking for protection.
I would figure John just because his first interview was with a reporter holding the microphone towards the door as he hid in his house. He never came out publicly unlike the other crump/nutty jackson stooges.
After Judge Lester was recused, Nelson was assigned as judge by a so-called “random” system. I wonder how random it really was.
There are only 6 Judges in that county. Before the trial even started, one recued himself. O’Mara sought to recuse one and then we got Lester. There are only 2 others left. I thought I read if Nelson didn’t complete the trial, they’d have to go outside the county.
Thanks! I really like that on Hornsby’s website, he shows all of the time he got clients off with Judge Nelson. And some were probably even guilty! Seriously, her rulings on the law are so prejudicial, that she makes a mockery of the justice system there.
I thought I read back before Nelson was assigned to the case that that court was bringing another criminally certified judge onto their criminal bench. She had an hispanic sounding name, but I don’t remember it.
When Judge Strickland stepped down in KC’s case, CHIEF Judge Belvin Perry decided to sit for the case, the responsibilities of Chief Judge are to supervise their Judges & they too try cases just as Chief Judge Perry did, at the time, Judge P supervised over 75 Judges, it was Orange County but it could have encompassed other counties as well.
Seminole County HAS A CHIEF JUDGE TOO! His name is Chief Judge Alan Dickey.
Part Of Chief Judge Alan Dickey’s Mission Statement, presiding over Seminole County & Brevard County.:
Welcome to the Eighteenth Judicial Circuit Court. As Chief Judge, it is my honor to serve the citizens of Brevard and Seminole counties. It continues to be the mission of the Circuit to provide our citizens justice without prejudice in a professional manner focused on protecting rights and liberties, upholding and interpreting the law, and providing expeditious resolution of disputes.
http://www.flcourts18.org/page.php?2
Yeah, well, watch what they do, not what they say.
cboldt – I’ve watched many high profile cases as far back as Betty Broderick & OJ, & many cases in FLa. imo Chief Judge Belvin Perry without exception was absolutely the most fair Judge to both sides, giving each side ample opportunity to make their arguments I’ve ever watched in any case. I watched him do an excellent job, it’s hard to imagine anybody could be worse than Judge Nelson has been no matter who it was imo.
Nettles – It’s not a big deal if they go outside the county, CHIEF Judge Alan DIckey resides over the Judges for Seminole & Brevard counties. The Chief Judge could even reside over the case just like in KC’s case.
Chief Judge Dickey’s Mission statement is at this link, I listed it down thread too, BUT the links included at this link list the Judges for both Seminole & Brevard Counties PLUS look under “biographies,” it lists the Judges in both Seminole & Brevard. Lots of Circuit Judges in Brevard & County Judges as well.
“It’s a violation of common sense” in reference to Mr. Owen doubling his small sample to get enough to analyze. – George Doddington.
Can you picture Mr. Owen and Mr. Reich yelling at their computers screens today? I can.
Mr. O’Mara has finished with his examination of Dr. George Doddington. They have broken for 1/2 hour lunch and when they come back, Mr. Mantei from the state will begin his cross-examination. Mr. Mantei estimated between his cross and Mr. O’Mara’s redirect that about another hour would be needed of Dr. Doddington.
Here’s what Reich had to say in his report: “Although 8-bit amplitude resolution is attractive for situations requiring small data files, it’s vertical scale has only 256 amplitude gradations [compared to 65,536 for 16-bit]. The 911-Dispatch System’s 16-bit resolution was critical to the success of this investigation, in which the recorded signals had a very wide dynamic range (from very distant speech to softly whispered speech to a single loud gunshot to several heart-poundingly loud screams.)”
He testified that he knew it was 16-bit because of the metadata from the file he was given. Oops, turns out it was 8-bit data in a 16-bit file format. The top 8 bits were all zeros! LMAO! That alone should disqualify him as a kook.
Doddington noticed this by viewing either the waveform or a spectrograph – too jagged for 16 bit vertical resolution. So, he looked at the PCM file and saw how the bits are arranged. TaDa.
I think his value as an expert was diminished by O’Mara’s examination. Not to say he’s a bad witness or his testimony hurts the defense in any way, just that he could have been much, much better with skilled and focused questioning. The narrative that emerged from the dialog was impossible to follow.
The defense has the ultimate expert on their side….Tracy Martin.
Great point.
George Doddington just ended his testimony saying the sampling in this case is so bad that no one would attempt to analyze it for speech identification or voice recognition. “Mr. French wouldn’t touch it with a ten-foot pole.”
There is gong to be a delay in Mr. Wayman’s getting to the monitor (he’s in Rome) of about 15 minutes. Mr. O’Mara asked in the meantime could they address the motion in limine. Judge said no she didn’t want to get into another motion and delay hearing from witness in this hearing. The motion in limine could be hurt after jury selection and before start of trial.
Don West then advised the Judge the George is required to call into his monitoring station between 10am and noon every other day and could that be relaxed while the trial is on as he’ll be in the courtroom. The Judge ordered he call in either between 8am and 9am or 6pm and 7pm on the days he is required to report. Court went into recess until the witness is ready.
https://twitter.com/TennisLaw/status/343435088106766336
I wonder if Stutzman found Doddington to be credible. I think she has what Doddington said, about right, but that is different from an opinion as to the persausive value. Does she believe Doddington? Does she think her readers should believe Doddington?
Tough chore for her to communicate the relative merits of the experts’ cases.
The witness is on a tarmac and his plane is delayed. They will have to continue the hearing at a later date. Court now in recess until Monday morning at 9:00am EST.
The Judge is going to waste the Jury’s time in waiting around while the court takes care of business that should have concluded before they were selected for Jury duty.
https://twitter.com/TennisLaw/status/343440326440132608
It will be neither the Frye or Daubert standards – it will be the Nelson standard!
Whether Judge Nelson lets the state’s experts testify or not doesn’t matter to me. Part of me thinks that letting them testify in front of a jury will help the defense case in showing how dishonest and desperate the state is. The Frye hearing seems to have done that already. I just caught the end of an HLN program yesterday that had two lawyers, laughing about the state’s experts. I didn’t get their names but even the biased station couldn’t find someone to go to air and say the state’s experts are credible.
Rene’s write-up today admits, she isn’t sure the state’s experts are going to be helpful to the state. Both Owen and Reich in their own way said the sampling was too poor to tell for sure so I gave you my best guess.
“Let’s just put it out there that it’s not a perfect tape,” Owen said. “This is not really good evidence.”
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-trial-audio-ruling-20130607,0,903275.story
I think if the state is allowed to put these witnesses in front of the jury, they do so at their own peril.
Adds more weight to my theory that BDLR, Corey, and Nelson are all hoping to be so over the top in their misconduct that a conviction, if it comes, will surely be overturned on appeal.
So, no ruling on the voice experts, no ruling on defense motions in limine, no depo of Crump, and no finishing depo of W8, but the tents will rise over the three ring circus bright and early Monday morning. I suspect the entire defense team will not be going to bed for days.
Of the items you mentioned, no depo of Crump is the most problematic. Motions in limine can be disposed of quickly. A decision on the expert disqualification motion can wait until the expert is about to be called to testify, which might be several days into the trial, or even a week into the trial, depending on how the state chooses to proceed. I don’t believe the court will allow the state to call an expert until after the court rules on the defense motion.
I do agree, long hours in the next weeks. Nelson is erecting barriers, and it’s not easy for the defense to pick which of those represent reversible error. I’m sure they don’t want to leave any issues standing without documented objection.
My feeling is that the defense is in pretty good shape, even with those issues in limbo. A HUGE issue will be the contents of jury instructions, and likely just before that, the contents of evidence against a motion for acquittal.
The Crump depo is most useful to obtain evidence against Crump, which is a separate proceeding be it bar complaint or lawsuit. This trial is a good opportunity to get evidence that will become unavailable once the defense has concluded presentation of its case.
“Nelson is erecting barriers, and it’s not easy for the defense to pick which of those represent reversible error. I’m sure they don’t want to leave any issues standing without documented objection.”
Please can you explain that in non-legal terms? IANAL and I have no idea what you mean by “erecting barriers.”
From the DCA opinion released, they seemed to have a major problem with the judge not ruling that a Crump depo was critical at this time, as the damage done later could not be determined. Were they just telegraphing what would be considered on appeal? or, were they concerned that a third party lawyer, working for the victim’s family in a civil lawsuit should not have the ability to have so much influence with the criminal trial that is so necessary in order to get to that civil lawsuit?
Does anyone know of any cases where a civil attorney, working for the victims family, ever made it so loud, blatant and obvious, from the get go, that they are planning on suing everything that moves, as long as they get a conviction on some charges? or they will burn the place down, literally? I truly don’t know if anything like this has ever been so telegraphed even before any investigation was completed.
By “erecting barriers,” I just mean she is ruling against defense motions and in favor of state motions. Each of those instances represents some kind of barrier to the defense preparing for and putting on the case supported by evidence; or a “green light” to the state to present a misleading case.
The DCA Crump opinion, by saying they couldn’t determine the damage, was basically saying that they can’t know what Crump has if he doesn’t provide testimony, and without a record, there is no way to tell if excluding him affected the trial or not.
If your question is to how many attorneys manage to co-opt the press to dishonest advantage, Sharpton and Brawley comes to mind. There is no shortage of skunks out there.
I’m trying to catch up on the hearing videos of the last 3 days. I was watching Owens, and near the beginning he is talking about pitch, and he says men have about 120 vibrations per something (minute, utterance, I don’t know). Then he says that’s the majority of the population. Hmmm. Women are 52% of the population. This guy can’t get anything right lol
120 Hz, or cycles per second. The “A” note sounded on the second (or fifth, if you prefer) string on a tuned guitar vibrates at 440 Hz. Hz (short for Hertz) is cycles (for sound, air pressure peaks and valleys) per second.
His reference to majority of the population is a reference to the population of men. “Population” is a common statistical term, and refers to the entire group for which a contention is asserted. That group can be, and was in this case, all post-puberty males.
I’m big on research, so very familiar with stats – not familiar with this field, of course. And as hard of a time I had listening to this guy, the next guy (Barney Frank type speech) had me ready to commit suicide lol
Thank you AJ! Part 1 of today’s hearing. He’ll have part 2 up soon.
The appendix has been added to the state’s 17th Supplemental. ie: Gym Membership, Police rejection letter, cell phone texts, Trayvon’s 7-Eleven receipt, etc.
the appendix has been added to the State’s 17th Supp. http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0613/states_17_discovery_redacted_exhibits_redacted.pdf …
Page 23. Arizona WtrmlnFtJcCktl 23zCn
With BDLR putting in the discovery that it was iced tea, I thought the receipt may read that. Details don’t matter, obviously.
Is that supposed to be a list of George’s cell phone calls (p12/31) from 2/26/12?
Because there’s nothing on there that could be the NEN call, even if you shift the hour part around to account for different time zones.
Further, it’s not the number he gave dispatcher Sean on that call.
(I had forgotten about the guy who got a new cell phone in May of 2012 and got George’s old number and lots of threatening calls and texts to go with it)
Could that be Shellie’s phone they got by mistake?
According to the summary on page 2/31, it is Robert Zimmerman Jr.’s phone records. It says Shellie’s were provided earlier.
Replying to myself to note that I just figured out that I’m an idiot and that is (or was) his brother’s number, not his.